Alternative to the 5th movement? Options

[tis]

[revil]

Do you have a copy of the video? Or can you give the part of the video with the name? If so, I can probably retrieve the name... I hope.

[Jon Z]

For a new wrinkle... According to the Asahi Shinbun (Feb. 13, 1945) a Satō Kinnosuke died on Feb. 10, 1945. He lived in Chōfu, Oomori-ku, Tokyo. I don't know if this was Satō Kinnosuke the jūdōka or not. Can anyone confirm his dates or where he would have resided in 1945?
Jon Z

This post has been edited by Jon Z: Nov 2 2009, 09:47 PM

[Hanon]

I have received a movie from early fifties containing fragments of Itsutsu-no-kata performed by Mifune during the All Japan Championships. The fifth movement is different: instead of dropping into the posture of yoko-wakare tori drops on his four.
Can anybody explain it? CK-sensei, Hanon-sensei, please.
[attachment=9164:itsutsu1.jpg][attachment=9165:itsutsu2.jpg][attachment=9166:its
tsu3.jpg][attachment=9167:itsutsu4.jpg][attachment=9168:itsutsu5.jpg]

I have no idea what to make of that. Never seen this before and its no wonder Dr Kano didnt practice it. To lay in that posture when attacked is very unwise. I am baffled. I shall keep to what I was taught.

Mike

[Res Judicata]

Based on the pictures, the technique appears to be similar ones used in Aikido and related arts. The principle behind it is moving in and under a fully committed attack (e.g. downward sword strike). It requires perfect timing.

Morehi Ueshiba performs a version here http://www.videoplayer.hu/videos/play/143297 at about 1:42

Gozo Shioda does it here at about 2:30

This post has been edited by Res Judicata: Nov 2 2009, 11:21 PM

[Cichorei Kano]

For a new wrinkle... According to the Asahi Shinbun (Feb. 13, 1945) a Satō Kinnosuke died on Feb. 10, 1945. He lived in Chōfu, Oomori-ku, Tokyo. I don't know if this was Satō Kinnosuke the jūdōka or not. Can anyone confirm his dates or where he would have resided in 1945?
Jon Z

No. Different Satô Kinnosuke. The one I am referring to was born in Meiji 31 (1898) and died in 1972. I don't have the exact date.

[Cichorei Kano]

I have no idea what to make of that. Never seen this before and its no wonder Dr Kano didnt practice it. To lay in that posture when attacked is very unwise. I am baffled. I shall keep to what I was taught.

Mike

Sensei, that does not quite make sense. You know very well that Itsutsu is not a shôbu-no-kata. These are not "fighting sequences". It makes in fact quite a lot of sense. Also, it is not correct that Kanô Jigorô did not practice it. The exercise is known as Kuden Gohon, in Tenjin Shinyô-ryû, and since he held menkyo kaiden in this school, that implies he did have to learn and master it, and practice it. It was one of the changes, in fact the largest change in Itsutsu made by him.

When Koshiki-no-kata is practised in Kôdôkan jûdô, only one defense to Shikoro-dori is performed, there where Kitô-ryû Takenaka-ha and Noda-ha style performs two; one of them ends in an armlock. The fact that Kanô did not preserve this in jûdô's koshiki is not because it is not effective, but because he had a specific purpose for preserving Koshiki in jûdô, namely to preserve the theoretical basis of kuzushi and action/reaction. The one armlock does not fit within that framework. Even though there is action/reaction and kuzushi, it does not lead to form the basis of jûdô throwing, which is what Koshki is about.

There do not exist any film recordings, nor even pictures of Kanô performing Itsutsu, if I am correct, so it is a moot point. In fact, itsutsu was not featured in any jûdô book until very late. If I recall correct (Sam can correct me if I am wrong) Itsutsu is not featured in either Kanô's original text, Nagaoaka & Yamashita's work, nor in Isogai's work, at least no depicted. I would have to check this, but it may very well be that Maruyama's 1939 works is the very first appearance of Itsutsu with pictures and explained in detail.

In fact, it does not appear in writing in normal Tenjin Shinyô-texts either, for the simple reason that it is 'kuden' or Oral transmission.

[Jon Z]

No. Different Satô Kinnosuke. The one I am referring to was born in Meiji 31 (1898) and died in 1972. I don't have the exact date.

For anyone still interested in the identity of Mifune's uke, I was able to look at the Yomiuri Newspapers database today and 1) the judoka Satō Kinnosuke was indeed alive as late at Mifune's death in 1968 and 2) (and more importantly) there is a photo of him with the German wrestling coach Helmut Lehmann (about whom Joseph Svinth has written in a different post recently) in an article dated April, 27, 1939. The picture is small and of terrible quality (I think it was previously microfilmed) but he really looks identical to the uke in the video just as CK had said -- down to the trademark mustache. Unfortunately I can't download the article or I would post the photo but I thought I would give the bibliographic information for the record.
Jon Z

[Cichorei Kano]

For anyone still interested in the identity of Mifune's uke, I was able to look at the Yomiuri Newspapers database today and 1) the judoka Satō Kinnosuke was indeed alive as late at Mifune's death in 1968 and 2) (and more importantly) there is a photo of him with the German wrestling coach Helmut Lehmann (about whom Joseph Svinth has written in a different post recently) in an article dated April, 27, 1939. The picture is small and of terrible quality (I think it was previously microfilmed) but he really looks identical to the uke in the video just as CK had said -- down to the trademark mustache. Unfortunately I can't download the article or I would post the photo but I thought I would give the bibliographic information for the record.
Jon Z

Thanks, Jon Z !

Glad to hear I still seem to know some things for sure !

By the way, Mifune died January 27th of 1965, not 1968.

This post has been edited by Cichorei Kano: Nov 5 2009, 04:26 AM

[Jon Z]

Thanks, Jon Z !

Glad to hear I still seem to know some things for sure !

By the way, Mifune died January 27th of 1965, not 1968.

Sorry... yes I just double checked and Mifune's obit was on Jan 28, 1965 not '68.

[Hanon]

Sensei, that does not quite make sense. You know very well that Itsutsu is not a shôbu-no-kata. These are not "fighting sequences". It makes in fact quite a lot of sense. Also, it is not correct that Kanô Jigorô did not practice it. The exercise is known as Kuden Gohon, in Tenjin Shinyô-ryû, and since he held menkyo kaiden in this school, that implies he did have to learn and master it, and practice it. It was one of the changes, in fact the largest change in Itsutsu made by him.

When Koshiki-no-kata is practised in Kôdôkan jûdô, only one defense to Shikoro-dori is performed, there where Kitô-ryû Takenaka-ha and Noda-ha style performs two; one of them ends in an armlock. The fact that Kanô did not preserve this in jûdô's koshiki is not because it is not effective, but because he had a specific purpose for preserving Koshiki in jûdô, namely to preserve the theoretical basis of kuzushi and action/reaction. The one armlock does not fit within that framework. Even though there is action/reaction and kuzushi, it does not lead to form the basis of jûdô throwing, which is what Koshki is about.

There do not exist any film recordings, nor even pictures of Kanô performing Itsutsu, if I am correct, so it is a moot point. In fact, itsutsu was not featured in any jûdô book until very late. If I recall correct (Sam can correct me if I am wrong) Itsutsu is not featured in either Kanô's original text, Nagaoaka & Yamashita's work, nor in Isogai's work, at least no depicted. I would have to check this, but it may very well be that Maruyama's 1939 works is the very first appearance of Itsutsu with pictures and explained in detail.

In fact, it does not appear in writing in normal Tenjin Shinyô-texts either, for the simple reason that it is 'kuden' or Oral transmission.

Hi Sensei,

You are spot on. I do know this though. My point was perhaps poorly made. Judo is a martial way, martial has a significant role in kodokna judo. In no sensibile situation would a tori lay arse up on all fours on the floor. I know the Itsutsu no kata is not a shobu kata BUT it has ingrained into it the core principles of a martial way. For tori to go on all fours like that seems to me very odd and not in the spirit of any martial way or art that I know of regardless of demonstration of a principle.
In the present day fifth action tori drops in front of uke in a sutemi keeping himself in full view of uke. I would think that wiser and more in keeping with a martial way and its core principles.
Please accept I do understand that the itsutsu no kata is a kata of motional principles and not ment to demonstrate effective shobu waza.

Mike

[fredlinux]

I know of only one book that still has retained this original performance, and that is the authoritative work by Maruyama Sanzô which dates from 1939, and thus was started when Kanô still was alive. Maruyama was one of the few serious Japanese jûdô historians.

Maruyama Sanzô (丸山三造), Dai Nihon Judo Shi (大日本柔道史), Tokyo, Kodokan, 1939, 1170 p.