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Food for thought Sport and "Do" Rate Topic: ***** 1 Votes

#16 User is offline   TeddyRoosevelt 

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 08:24 PM

_steve_, on Dec 11 2005, 07:58 PM, said:

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Hmmm... The lesson I learned from this thread was actually about ego. The westerner won, offered advice, the easterner rejected it, and challenged him to a dual to the death. Westerner rejected the challenge.
#1

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If I lost a shia to someone I would be an arrogant baby if I then said "well let's go take this outside."
#2

QUOTE #1: Actually the Easterner wanted to make a point as to the actual reason for practicing Kyudo, composure under stress.

QUOTE #2: Actually, that is exactly what was happening with the point Karate tournaments of the '60s, competitors were taking the fight outside to determine the real winner: for example Ron Marchini had actually offered out a TKD competitor, Kim, to settle an issue of unnecessary roughness on part of the Korean.

Please read this excellent article on Kyudo:

http://www.fightinga...icle.php?id=393

This post has been edited by TeddyRoosevelt: 11 December 2005 - 08:32 PM

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 08:38 PM

"If I lost a shia to someone I would be an arrogant baby if I then said "well let's go take this outside.""

actually this is not a correct anology

the kyodo practitioner made the challenge after being offered instruction, not becouse he lost the tournament.

his point i think was that the westerner did not understand the "do" element of his art.

as i read the posts i can see the western side and the eastern side.
some in this forum view judo as a sport while others view it as a way of life or "do"

i tend to view judo in both ways,

i like the sporting aspects and the "do" aspects as well.

i like shiai and kata, i like the people i have met while learning judo

judo is something that is constantly changing and that is the beauty of it.
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#18 User is offline   kanojujitsu 

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 08:43 PM

sorry that was me i forgot to log in
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#19 User is offline   TeddyRoosevelt 

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 08:51 PM

Hi Akeru,

I would like to add one of my favorite Kyudo stories I read in Black Belt Magazine as a kid to add to your analogy:

"A monk was practicing Kyudo in a field when a Samurai challenged him to an archery contest. The monk accepted but asked the Samurai to accompany him to a nearby mountain top to compete. The Samurai agreed and spent the day walking with the monk up to a precipice with a 10,000 foot drop. The monk calmly walked out to the precarious ledge and set up some straw targets and walked along the edge some great distance and asked the Samurai to come out to shoot with him. This the Samurai did but with obvious reservation looking straight down into a 10,000 foot abyss and the unusual distance to the targets. With utmost composure the monk hit the bullseye three times in a row and with the fourth shot actually split the center arrow Robin Hood style. The Samurai, his palms sweating and distracted from the great plunge just inches from his sandals, hit the target wide twice, missed once, and couldn't fire the fourth arrow unable to further concentrate on the great distance to the target because of the dizzying height, the snow, the cold, and the wind. The monk explained that in Kyudo there is no difference in shooting whether two feet from the target or two hundred feet, or in a field or on a mountain ledge, Kyudo teaches composure of the mind."

Now compare this with Dr. Kano's explanation of the purpose of randori in Judo:

"The object of a systematic physical training in Judo is not only to develop the body but to enable a man or a woman to have a perfect control over mind and body and make him or her ready to meet any emergency whether that be a pure accident or an attack by others." http://judoinfo.com/kano1.htm

This post has been edited by TeddyRoosevelt: 11 December 2005 - 08:55 PM

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#20 User is offline   _steve_ 

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 08:56 PM

Quote #1: There is no absolute reason for practicing archery. Some do it so that they can become better hunters, some do it for sport, and appearently the easterner does it to practice composure under stress. A less risky way the easterner could have made his point would have been to say. "I don't care about becomming better at hitting the bulls eye, that's why I don't want your pointers."

I guess what rubs me the wrong way with this story is that with judo there are several reasons why someone would do it and I wouldn't turn down hearing advice from someone who bested me because they practice judo for a different reason than me.

This post has been edited by _steve_: 11 December 2005 - 09:04 PM

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#21 User is offline   d.f. 

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 09:10 PM

Hi Akeru,

I understand the point you were trying to make and I know that you were not attempting to be patronizing. For your benefit, I'll state up front that judo was not my first martial art and I don't train in judo to be the next olympic champion. Although I have competed several times, it is not my focus. However, I do believe that you missed my point about "physical culture" and the how and why it developed in the west and how it is mirrored in the 'do' arts of japan.
First, yes, archery is indeed a sport. However, for many people it is also a way of life. I grew up and live in the american midwest, where bowhunting is a passion for many people. There is also a seperate rifle season and while hunters can participate in both seasons, there are many that are exclusive bowhunters. Why do you think this is? I know you won't get deep sounding mystical answers from these bowhunters, but if they were just out to kill some game, a rifle is a much easier way to do it. Using a bow is ineffecient and anachronistic and against the concept of hunting as a sport.
A kyudoka does seek self improvement through his archery. If self improvement was his only goal, why does he even bother with the archery in the first place? Self improvement can be accomplished in many ways that are simpler and much less frustrating than archery.
I know you think that sport is simply the way we occupy free time, I don't agree that its that simple. I don't think that people spend time, energy and passion on something that is simply a way to occupy their time, time is far too precious for that. If sport served no purpose, people would have no use for them, so I don't believe that is the case. The idea behind the development of "physical culture" and modern sports was to develop strong bodies, strong minds, encourage teamwork, improve communication and in general to make better citizens. Does this sound familiar at all? If it does, you may have realized that for the most part western society called some things "sports" that eastern society called "martial arts".
That said, I definitely don't believe judo is "just" a sport, in the same sense that you're speaking. As I said before, I believe that more often than not, the "sport versus budo" debate is a false dichotomy. Each side of that particular debate misses the fact that there is more than one path up any particular mountain.
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#22 User is offline   TeddyRoosevelt 

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 11:56 PM

d.f., on Dec 11 2005, 09:10 PM, said:

   

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A kyudoka does seek self improvement through his archery.  If self improvement was his only goal, why does he even bother with the archery in the first place?  Self improvement can be accomplished in many ways that are simpler and much less frustrating than archery.
#1

Quote

Does this sound familiar at all?  If it does, you may have realized that for the most part western society called some things "sports" that eastern society called "martial arts".
#2

Hi,

I just wanted to interject something here:

QUOTE #1: What type of self-improvement using the bow & arrow is the Kyudoka seeking which other endeavours cannot provide is the question which should be asked.

Since the Zen Buddhist monks had developed Kyu-do from Kyu-jitsu, they saw in the practice of archery a value absent in other martial arts which was beneficial to metaphysical Zen theology, which was cultivating in the mind a form of concentration or meditation which was not perturbed by anything in the environment. Regardless of your immediate circumstances you should not allow anything to distract your concentration to placing that arrow exactly where you want it. Therefore accuracy becomes secondary to mind-control, then accuracy will follow the undisturbed mind. Some of the Kyudo masters will place an arrow dead center without looking. They will glance at the target, turn their head away, and place the arrow dead on bullseye, which is a demonstration of their mind-control and not their archery!

QUOTE #2: Actually, Japan in their Edo period distinguished the difference between 'sports' and 'martial arts', and did not confuse the two.

Three hundred years ago the Japanese formed leagues and played ball. They had tournaments with competing teams between villages and did not mistake a bat for a sword.

The West may have confused 'sports' with 'martial arts' but not the East.

This post has been edited by TeddyRoosevelt: 12 December 2005 - 12:15 AM

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#23 User is offline   TeddyRoosevelt 

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Posted 12 December 2005 - 12:11 AM

_steve_, on Dec 11 2005, 08:56 PM, said:

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Quote #1: There is no absolute reason for practicing archery.


Quote

I guess what rubs me the wrong way with this story is that with judo there are several reasons why someone would do it and I wouldn't turn down hearing advice from someone who bested me because they practice judo for a different reason than me.

I agree with you that there is no absolute reason for practicing archery, but Kyudo is an absolute. You can learn archery just about anywhere for anyreason you want, but you must conform to the principles of Kyudo or else you're not doing Kyudo.

You must realize by now that archery is just a means to an end in Kyudo? Kyudo is a form of dynamic meditation using the bow & arrow to accomplish that goal, not just flinging arrows through the air. Judo randori is also a form of dynamic meditation using Dr. Kano's principles of Judo: that is the similarity between Judo and Kyudo. Archery is to wrestling what Kyudo is to Judo (the analogy is incomplete because Kyudo has an interesting and profound attitude towards distance impossible to achieve with Judo).

Also, there might be several reasons, or more, why someone might do Judo, but Judo remains the same regardless of one's reason for taking it. Kodokan Judo remains Kodokan Judo no matter why anyone studies it.

This post has been edited by TeddyRoosevelt: 12 December 2005 - 12:14 AM

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#24 User is offline   Judo4All 

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Posted 12 December 2005 - 12:14 AM

If Japanese archer knew that westerner would back out if challanged to a duel then all he (Japanese) was is a good poker player/bluffer and/or he wanted to prove that he is willing to possibly die rather then be proven wrong. This is very rigid and has nothing with spirit of Judo in my opinion.

"Westerner left in silence." I bet. He was probably thinking this guy is nuts.

And if the point of the story was that Japanese archer wanted to show the Westerner that inner peace under pressure is equally or more important then technique, that is (in this case) mixing apples and organges. They were competiting in technique (i.e. comparable to Judo KATA) and not in duel (i.e. randori) and Japanese lost. He should have congratulated to him and learned from Westerner.

This post has been edited by Judo4All: 12 December 2005 - 12:17 AM

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#25 User is offline   TeddyRoosevelt 

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Posted 12 December 2005 - 12:21 AM

Judo4All, on Dec 12 2005, 12:14 AM, said:

If Japanese archer knew that westerner would back out if challanged to a duel then all he (Japanese) was a good poker player/blufer or wanted to prove that he is willing to possible die rather then be proven wrong. This is very rigid and has nothing with spirit of Judo in my opinion.

And if the point of the story was that Japanese archer wanted to show the Westerner that inner peace is equally or more important then technique, that is (in this case) mixing apples and organges. They were competiting in technique and Japanese lost. He should have congratulated and learned to/from Westerner.

Hi,

You must be familiar with the 'reality check'?

Did you ever encounter a loud-mouth bully somewhere and when you offer him out, and he realizes you're not kidding, he suddenly backs down? Yeah, I've taught a lot of punks the difference between theory and reality by asking them to step outside, then suddenly they get cold feet! I believe that is exactly the lesson the Eastern bowman was imparting to the Westerner, that Kyudo deals with the ugly reality of life & death, and not just target practice.

I see the same phenomenon with paint-ball enthusiasts who wilt at the idea of an actual gunfight!

Bruce Lee did say it best when he stated: "Boards don't hit back!" And Bruce Lee wasn't bluffing when he said it to the tough guys.

This post has been edited by TeddyRoosevelt: 12 December 2005 - 12:24 AM

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#26 User is offline   Judo4All 

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Posted 12 December 2005 - 12:24 AM

TeddyRoosevelt, on Dec 12 2005, 12:21 AM, said:

Judo4All, on Dec 12 2005, 12:14 AM, said:

If Japanese archer knew that westerner would back out if challanged to a duel then all he (Japanese) was a good poker player/blufer or wanted to prove that he is willing to possible die rather then be proven wrong. This is very rigid and has nothing with spirit of Judo in my opinion.

And if the point of the story was that Japanese archer wanted to show the Westerner that inner peace is equally or more important then technique, that is (in this case) mixing apples and organges. They were competiting in technique and Japanese lost. He should have congratulated and learned to/from Westerner.

Hi,

You must be familiar with the 'reality check'?

Did you ever encounter a loud-mouth bully somewhere and when you offer him out, and he realizes you're not kidding, he suddenly backs down? Yeah, I've taught a lot of punks the difference between theory and reality by asking them to step outside, then suddenly they get cold feet! I believe that is exactly the lesson the Eastern bowman was imparting to the Westerner, that Kyudo deals with the ugly reality of life & death, and not just target practice.

I see the same phenomenon with paint-ball enthusiasts who wilt at the idea of an actual gunfight!

Bruce Lee did say it best when he stated: "Boards don't hit back!"

Hi Teddy,

Thanks for your reply.

Yes, I heard about reality check. Reality check is exactly my point here.

From my reading of the article I did not get the impression that the Westerner was a bully at all - just another archer competing/comparing his skill with his Japanese colleague.

If you want to talk about bullying then I think it was the Japanese who was the bully by suddenly talking about life and death duel and only after he lost the competition. Would the Japanese archer challange the Westerner to a duel had the Japanese won?

Best regards,
Dino

This post has been edited by Judo4All: 12 December 2005 - 12:25 AM

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#27 User is offline   TeddyRoosevelt 

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Posted 12 December 2005 - 12:33 AM

Judo4All, on Dec 12 2005, 12:24 AM, said:


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If you want to talk about bullying then I think it was the Japanese who was the bully by suddenly talking about life and death duel and only after he lost the competition. Would the Japanese archer challange the Westerner to a duel had the Japanese won?



Hi Dino,

Actually I think the Kyudoka was just putting his money where his mouth is, so to speak and not being a bully.

There is a difference between archery and Kyudo. Archery is simply a means to an end for the Kyudoist. The Kyudoka is simply using the bow & arrow as a means to practice some unique forms of meditation.

The Samurai practiced Kyu-jitsu, simply the pragmatic skill of accurate archery, and the Samurai would have accepted the Westerner's challenge to an archery match.

Yet the Zen Buddhist monks developed Kyu-do from Kyu-jitsu in order to accomplish some aspects of meditation conducive to Zen theology, not just to be marksmen with a bow.

I have a similar attitude toward Judo, the only way to learn Judo is to do Judo, and not just talk or read about it.
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#28 User is offline   Judo4All 

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Posted 12 December 2005 - 12:41 AM

TeddyRoosevelt, on Dec 12 2005, 12:33 AM, said:

Judo4All, on Dec 12 2005, 12:24 AM, said:






Hi Dino,

Actually I think the Kyudoka was just putting his money where his mouth is, so to speak and not being a bully.

There is a difference between archery and Kyudo. Archery is simply a means to an end for the Kyudoist. The Kyudoka is simply using the bow & arrow as a means to practice some unique forms of meditation.

The Samurai practiced Kyu-jitsu, simply the pragmatic skill of accurate archery, and the Samurai would have accepted the Westerner's challenge to an archery match.

Yet the Zen Buddhist monks developed Kyu-do from Kyu-jitsu in order to accomplish some aspects of meditation conducive to Zen theology, not just to be marksmen with a bow.

I have a similar attitude toward Judo, the only way to learn Judo is to do Judo, and not just talk or read about it.

Hi Teddy,

I guess we are both on-line. There should be some sort of chat room for all of us.

Anyway, I see your point about putting his money where his mouth is. I also agree that doing Judo is the only way of learning/living Judo.

I guess what bothered me somewhat was the fact that the Japanese was not even willing to consider learning from Westerner (I am talkinb about technique now).

Best regards,
Dino
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#29 User is offline   TeddyRoosevelt 

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Posted 12 December 2005 - 12:51 AM

Judo4All, on Dec 12 2005, 12:41 AM, said:

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I guess what bothered me somewhat was the fact that the Japanese was not even willing to consider learning from Westerner (I am talkinb about technique now).



Hi Dino,

Actually, the Japanese were never very shy about borrowing innovations from the West, or any other place on the Earth. Note how quickly they adopted the musket from a certain infamous Portugese seacaptain! The Japanese have been called a nation of great perfectionists and not innovators (just as the Germans have been called a nation of scientists and the Irish a nation of poets and the English a nation of shop keepers). The Japanese throughout their history have borrowed and perfected (at least perfection measured by their standards).

It is the Chinese who have always demonstrated a reluctance at adopting anything from the West. It was a Chinese Emporer who told a British ambassador: "You have nothing we want!" and to this day China considers itself superior to any country in the world.

But obviously the Japanese archer was comfortable with his technique and didn't see any improvement in 'Kyu-do' offered by the Western barbarian. :P

This post has been edited by TeddyRoosevelt: 12 December 2005 - 12:52 AM

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#30 User is offline   TeddyRoosevelt 

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Posted 12 December 2005 - 01:06 AM

Something else I think would be food for thought regarding the similarities between 'Kyudo' dynamic meditation and Judo's 'Randori' dynamic meditation was the difference between swordsmanship as practiced in early England and Spain.

The 16th century English took a very pragmatic view towards their swordsmanship and taught only what they thought was necessary to win. Yet the Spanish schools intergrated logic, mathematics, and well as poetry into their fencing curriculum. Eventually the English swordsmen conceded that the Spanish swordsmen were superior to any other swordsmen in Europe. Now how in the world does the study of poetry or logic improve one's swordsmanship? Obviously the Spanish took the metaphysical view of improving the man and the swordsmanship would follow! Similarly Dr. Kano's Judo and the art of Kyudo sought to improve the man first, then technique and accuracy would follow. In my interpretation: This is the sophisticated and superior attitude towards the martial arts!

Please read: http://jan.ucc.nau.e...gic_circle.html
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