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#161 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 04:59 PM

View Postsenseidab, on Feb 14 2008, 02:25 PM, said:

It does not suprise me in the least that many of you find it odd that one can study judo "without emphasis" on Shiai. Dr Kano never participated in shiai, does that qualify him as a "recreational Judoka"? I think not...for all those who obsess with your winning shiai records...you are missing the entire principles of judo. Competition was never intended to be the end all of Kano's philosphies.
Some of you on this site even refer to anybody other than a competitor as a " recreational Judoka" Classifying one who studies Traditional Kodokan Judo as recreational is both misinformed and arrogant at best. Those who choose to studty Traditional judo ..maintain balance in their studies...learning all the kata of judo...yes, I said it kata! learning the atemi of the the Kukumin Taiiku.
Recreation and Competition are synonomous with a sporting event. Coaches condition athletes.....Sensei's culitivate the mind , body and spirit of the judoka.

Obsession with competition needs to stop! It is time to take a stand of accountability. The days of learning/teaching three technniques and riding them to olympic fame must end! I have seen time and time again ..the typical judo jock enter a traditional judo dojo and find him/herself in complete bewilderment when it comes to accountability...most are unfamiliar with the Gokyo no waza are lost when it comes to kata and are incapable of intellectual discussion on topics related to theory and philosophy. These jock dojo's lack tradition and most are devoid of any martial ethics....the instructor trains his athletes! far diffrent for the instructor who TEACHES his students! ........History has documented that Jigoro Kano in his latter years, resented the idea of competition, so too did Kenji Tomiki of Shotokan Aikido....they harbored these regrets until their dying days...but then again, what do they know? ..they are only recreational judoka!


Hello,

Please do read some of my posts prior to judging me on this one. I ask you to do this as you may think after reading this reply that I am anti zen judo, I am not I assure you.

You start your passionate post in much the same manner many of your organisation do with real heart and desire to be read and heard but with rather large mistakes.
To write "Dr Kano never participated in shiai" Is just untrue and there is no polite way to write this. Dr Kano did indeed participate in shiai and for his Kodokan judo Shiai was an integral part of the whole.
His Uwagi can be seen at the kodokan and it is in tatters.
Second point, "History has documented that Jigoro Kano in latter years, resented the idea of competition". This again is just untrue in the manner you present it here. Dr Kano did speak about his concerns for shiai as some participants did not hold and maintain what Dr Kano intended for Shiai. Dr Kano also disliked the idea of intercountry shiai as he thought this would introduce an element of nationalisation that was against the very heart of Kodokan judo. In Japan, Under the guidance of Dr Kano, shiai was organised and the famous red V white shiai where rather famous.

You will find I am a judoka who writes so much here about tradition, values and the education of judo, please dont think for one second I am in favour of championships every weekend and the goal or aim of judo only being to train for such events. I detest the koka and yuko and only allow waza-ari and ippon in my own dojo. The ONLY members of my dojo who own a blue gi are those who represnt themselves at national or international events where they are compulsery. No members trains in Blue gi.

I find that Zen Judo is as much in imbalance as some of the 'Olympic' type of clubs that you mention and dislike. On the one hand we have dojo where shiai is THE sole aim and then dojo where pupils play games or only practice kata. All these dojo have misbalance and the one thing Dr Kano did a lot of writting about and teaching was the vital concept of kuzushi, Balance.

Judo is a complete subject and to over train or only train just one or two parts leads to incomplete judo and thus cannot offer the student a complete education. Failure in the complete education leaves gaps in the students learning thus imbalances in his life.

What we learn in the dojo on the tatami translates directly to our daily lives. ALL parts of judo are vital just as ALL ingredients in a cake are vital, add one ingredient to much and the cake will not bake properly.

Shiai is a vital aspect in the education and completion of the self. Is shiai overemphasised today, yes it is, is kata under taught yes it is but zen judo has not helped balance out learning in judo all it has done is tip the balance to far the other way and bought judo within the zen group down to a 'practice' where half sutemi and the such like are understood to be judo when they are not.

Zen judo associations are just as reaponsible for the imbalance in judo due to there denial of shiai and these odd dangerous waza taught.

As in all organisations its not the pupils that are responsible for any misbalance its the leaders. The leadership in one of the zen groups was just out of all realms of credibility when we saw her 'judo waza' posted here. To repeat myself the membership are fine decent people just as in all associations I think it proper and just though that the membership receives the best possible leadership and this is just not the case in the zen associations.

I know you are a passionate person, passionate about judo. to this end you hold the grave responsibility, as all your leaders do, to learn and study the subject before writting well meaning articles on judo missquoting Dr Kano.

I am sure this debate will be interseting and be assured I am totaly in support of several of your other points. I do understand what you write but ..............

I wish you well,

Mike
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#162 User is offline   Francois 

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 05:13 PM

View Postsenseidab, on Feb 14 2008, 06:25 AM, said:

It does not suprise me in the least that many of you find it odd that one can study judo "without emphasis" on Shiai. Dr Kano never participated in shiai, does that qualify him as a "recreational Judoka"? I think not...for all those who obsess with your winning shiai records...you are missing the entire principles of judo. Competition was never intended to be the end all of Kano's philosphies.
Some of you on this site even refer to anybody other than a competitor as a " recreational Judoka" Classifying one who studies Traditional Kodokan Judo as recreational is both misinformed and arrogant at best. Those who choose to studty Traditional judo ..maintain balance in their studies...learning all the kata of judo...yes, I said it kata! learning the atemi of the the Kukumin Taiiku.
Recreation and Competition are synonomous with a sporting event. Coaches condition athletes.....Sensei's culitivate the mind , body and spirit of the judoka.

Obsession with competition needs to stop! It is time to take a stand of accountability. The days of learning/teaching three technniques and riding them to olympic fame must end! I have seen time and time again ..the typical judo jock enter a traditional judo dojo and find him/herself in complete bewilderment when it comes to accountability...most are unfamiliar with the Gokyo no waza are lost when it comes to kata and are incapable of intellectual discussion on topics related to theory and philosophy. These jock dojo's lack tradition and most are devoid of any martial ethics....the instructor trains his athletes! far diffrent for the instructor who TEACHES his students! ........History has documented that Jigoro Kano in his latter years, resented the idea of competition, so too did Kenji Tomiki of Shotokan Aikido....they harbored these regrets until their dying days...but then again, what do they know? ..they are only recreational judoka!

I agree with much of the gist of your post but there are some serious mistakes. There are handwritten manuscripts from 1902-1906 by Jigoro Kano where he speaks of participating in shiai and it's importance to the learning process of Judo. You mention that balance is important and I agree and shiai is a key component of maintaining that balance. I also agree that today there is too much emphasis on competition in Judo, and this is coming from someone who has represented two nations in international competitions.

Other than that, I think Hanon sensei has done an excellent job in his post. To say Kano shihan resented shiai couldn't be further from the truth. The famous kohaku shiai was a brainchild of Kano as Hanon has mentioned.
"The arts of peace and the arts of war are like two wheels of a cart which, lacking one, will have difficulty in standing."�Kuroda Nagamasa (1568-1623)

"In battle, if you you make your opponent flinch, you have already won." --- Miyamoto Musashi (1584-1645)
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#163 User is offline   finarashi 

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 07:10 PM

View Postsenseidab, on Feb 14 2008, 04:25 PM, said:

It does not suprise me in the least that many of you find it odd that one can study judo "without emphasis" on Shiai. Dr Kano never participated in shiai, ...

I tired unsuccesfully to find some previous posts where Kano Jigiro is more fully discussed. e.g "The father of judo : a biography of Jigoro Kano" by Watson, Brian N., Tokyo, Japan, Kodansha, 2000, ISBN 4770025300 describes an occasion where young Kano yet to develop the Kodokan Judo attends jiu-jitsu demonstartion at his school. When volunteers are called to 'grapple' with demonstrators Kano Jigiro steps to the podium. Similarly there is a story where during one of the sea voyages Kano Jigiro 'wrestles' with a large sailor.

IMHO shiai is a public trial where one practioner tries to defeat another. As Kano Jigiro amply writes it is not the outcome, but the act that is important. During the shiai we feel fear, anxiety, joy etc. adrenaline flows and we sweat. So it is this psychological test which benefits us. Without shiai we can not know how we would react under stress.

You are right when you state that shiai is mostly the realm of the young. This fits well with the concept of Bushido. What Kano Jigiro critiqued as old was not the shiai itself, but the side effects of shiai; overly reliance of strength, desire to win, reluctance of taking risks, etc.

I let every Judoka to practice judo as he/she sees fit and try not to interfere. On the other hand historical truth is historical truth and should not be distorted to support one's stance.

One thing to explore is why did these 'anti-shiai' branches of Judo appear. There was a similar 'independent' branch here in my country during the 70s and 80s. Was it the Judo in Olympic games or what?
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#164 User is offline   Jonesy 

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 08:34 PM

Firstly I am troubled by the name "Zen Judo". From Wikipedia:

Zen is a school of Mahāyāna Buddhism notable for its emphasis on mindful acceptance of the present moment, spontaneous action, and letting go of self-conscious, judgmental thinking. It emphasizes dharma practice and experiential wisdom—particularly as realized in the form of meditation known as zazen—in the attainment of awakening. As such, it de-emphasizes both theoretical knowledge and the study of religious texts in favor of direct individual experience of one's own true nature.

How this connects to a de-tuned version judo has never been clear to me?

It is clear that shiai (contest) was always meant to be an integral part of judo training. It was where you tested out your skill in applying what you had learnt in randori (free practice) and kata (formal methods). What has to be remembered is that shiai as envisaged by Kano is true contest, which is not at all the same thing as championship judo under IJF rules. This is a major source of confusion for many people who believe that shiai = tournaments. I am a traditionalist and not comfortable with blue judogi, yellow mats, the continuous tinkering with rules, obsession with medals etc etc, however I am a fervent supporter of shiai contests as a test of skill.

What also has to be remembered is that the waza of judo were concieved by, or modified from koryu by Kano. In doing so, Kano's guiding principle was "seiryoku zenyo" commonly translated as "maximum efficiency with minimum effort" or "best use of energy". When I look at the Zen modifications to the classical nage waza I see that this has, in many instances, been lost. This is also true for many of the curious renraku waza that feature as drills in Zen judo.

Bottom line - Kano was an educator and a genius. Despite his many other qualities and his admirable effort to redress the damage done to judo through over emphasis on championships, Dominick McCarthy was not.
Dr Llyr C Jones
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#165 User is offline   Ian 

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Posted 17 February 2008 - 06:16 PM

Good day to the forum

I have read through this thread with great interest and would like to put the history of the roots of Zen Judo in place.

It is stated on various sites that Zen Judo takes it's roots from the Kyushindo. Akeru is correct in that Kyushindo is a philosophy and not a martial system. Zen Judo take it's roots from the Kyushindo International Judo Association of which Dominic McCarthy was a member. it has no connection what ever with the B.J.C or M.O.S.J.

I knew Mac briefly and practised a few times (1969-1973) with him at the K.I.J.A. dojo at the Oddfellows Hall in Portsmouth (UK) the cheif instructor at that time was Bill Mustoe.

The main reason for Mac breaking away from the K.I.J.A was the direction this association was moving, i.e. towards a Shiai dominated based structure and the antics of the chief instructor G.S. Mayo. The K.I.J.A began to fragment towards the late 1970's and one of the offshoots of this was the British Kyushindo Judo Association headed by Bill Mustoe and since then varoius other Kyushindo styled associations have sprung up and with it I suspect many stories concerning Abe Kenshiro Sensei of whom many of these new association or their instructors would have had little or no connection. By the way neither did I as I did not join the K.I. J.A until late 1965.

I hope this is of help in settling some of the queries concerning the roots of the Associations mentioned above.

Ian.

View PostJonesy, on Feb 14 2008, 08:34 PM, said:

Firstly I am troubled by the name "Zen Judo". From Wikipedia:

Zen is a school of Mahāyāna Buddhism notable for its emphasis on mindful acceptance of the present moment, spontaneous action, and letting go of self-conscious, judgmental thinking. It emphasizes dharma practice and experiential wisdom—particularly as realized in the form of meditation known as zazen—in the attainment of awakening. As such, it de-emphasizes both theoretical knowledge and the study of religious texts in favor of direct individual experience of one's own true nature.

How this connects to a de-tuned version judo has never been clear to me?

It is clear that shiai (contest) was always meant to be an integral part of judo training. It was where you tested out your skill in applying what you had learnt in randori (free practice) and kata (formal methods). What has to be remembered is that shiai as envisaged by Kano is true contest, which is not at all the same thing as championship judo under IJF rules. This is a major source of confusion for many people who believe that shiai = tournaments. I am a traditionalist and not comfortable with blue judogi, yellow mats, the continuous tinkering with rules, obsession with medals etc etc, however I am a fervent supporter of shiai contests as a test of skill.

What also has to be remembered is that the waza of judo were concieved by, or modified from koryu by Kano. In doing so, Kano's guiding principle was "seiryoku zenyo" commonly translated as "maximum efficiency with minimum effort" or "best use of energy". When I look at the Zen modifications to the classical nage waza I see that this has, in many instances, been lost. This is also true for many of the curious renraku waza that feature as drills in Zen judo.

Bottom line - Kano was an educator and a genius. Despite his many other qualities and his admirable effort to redress the damage done to judo through over emphasis on championships, Dominick McCarthy was not.

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#166 User is offline   Jonesy 

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 06:48 PM

See attached.

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Dr Llyr C Jones
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#167 User is offline   HALFORD JONES 

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 05:51 PM

I hesitate to add my two cents worth to this topic but I have to say nearly everyone in martial arts of all persuasions do them differently,unless they are exact carbon copies(an obsolete term or nearly so in this spell check and electronic copy era) or clones or slavish imitators,etc. No two instructors or teacher or master teach the same way even if they use the same materials,ust as no two classroom teachers teach exactly the same way, even though they may teach the same subject,etc. Everyone has a certain flair,a certain elan,etc. Some instructors never teach the same lesson twice! Anyway, adding a dash of Zen to everything these days is one of those 'one size fits all' approaches that somehow tend to lack certain things: such as, intense study and practice of actual systems or styles of Zen. There seems to be a trend and this started way back actually to designate various activities as "Zen" in nature. The Japanese versions of Zen,that many westklerners have adopted to the extent of shaving their heads(and we see this in the everyday world of 'skinheads as well so it is not much of a distinction to be a shaved-headed Monk of any group) and entering Zen Monasteries,etc. Usually such personages write a few books(at least one on the subject and their enlightenment(Satori) to keep us posted(I know because the used book store I patronize has oodles of them). At any rate, Zen Judo and Zen Karate and so on and so forth as just ways for certain groups to make them distinguishable from the run-of-the mill pack of practitioners and associations that crop up everytime someone gets a bee in their bonnets,etc. Well, I hope you get my drift...........it's hardly ZENSIBLE!
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#168 User is offline   SODO 

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 10:30 AM

View Postsenseidab, on 14 February 2008 - 02:25 PM, said:

It does not suprise me in the least that many of you find it odd that one can study judo "without emphasis" on Shiai. Dr Kano never participated in shiai, does that qualify him as a "recreational Judoka"? I think not...for all those who obsess with your winning shiai records...you are missing the entire principles of judo. Competition was never intended to be the end all of Kano's philosphies.
Some of you on this site even refer to anybody other than a competitor as a " recreational Judoka" Classifying one who studies Traditional Kodokan Judo as recreational is both misinformed and arrogant at best. Those who choose to studty Traditional judo ..maintain balance in their studies...learning all the kata of judo...yes, I said it kata! learning the atemi of the the Kukumin Taiiku.
Recreation and Competition are synonomous with a sporting event. Coaches condition athletes.....Sensei's culitivate the mind , body and spirit of the judoka.

Obsession with competition needs to stop! It is time to take a stand of accountability. The days of learning/teaching three technniques and riding them to olympic fame must end! I have seen time and time again ..the typical judo jock enter a traditional judo dojo and find him/herself in complete bewilderment when it comes to accountability...most are unfamiliar with the Gokyo no waza are lost when it comes to kata and are incapable of intellectual discussion on topics related to theory and philosophy. These jock dojo's lack tradition and most are devoid of any martial ethics....the instructor trains his athletes! far diffrent for the instructor who TEACHES his students! ........History has documented that Jigoro Kano in his latter years, resented the idea of competition, so too did Kenji Tomiki of Shotokan Aikido....they harbored these regrets until their dying days...but then again, what do they know? ..they are only recreational judoka!


I have seldom read such arrogant and incorrect BS on this forum

sodo
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#169 User is offline   judoka_uk 

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 12:13 PM

View PostSODO, on 28 December 2010 - 10:30 AM, said:

I have seldom read such arrogant and incorrect BS on this forum

sodo

Have you not been reading my posts?
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#170 User is offline   Whiteknuckle 

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 10:55 PM

View Postjudoka_uk, on 28 December 2010 - 06:13 AM, said:

Have you not been reading my posts?

:risas: Arrogant,, maybe, BS, rarely.
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#171 User is offline   hark_76 

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 01:25 AM

I have to say that I am new to this siteand I am really enjoying seeing the deliberation about the same passion that has gripped me. I especially find the arguement surrounding zen judo versus kodokan judo intriguing. My background is that I come from a judo and ju-jitsu club that is nearly all law enforcment driven. Our second black belt is a police officer who does all of the hand to hand combat training for out portion of the state, Illinois if you are wondering. We are almost exclusively an adult club, with some of the older members children begining to now filter in, my little boy and girl being two of them. We train tradtional judo, our head sensei has 50+ years experience in it, but we adapt everything to a combat setting given our need for "street" application. We train the overwhelming amount of our randori on the ground, after the first part of the class being uchi comi and controlled throwing. We are even going to be starting after the new year with another night a week further amping up the intesity of our work out along with more work with atemi waza as it relates to our protection through the use of this art.

Let me say that I have the utmost respect for the traditions and philosophy of Judo, it is the reason that I am further introducing it in my household, however, it does seem that the "competition" crowd is a little bent on shia for rank if you will. The niche that my club explores for judo and ju-jitsu isn't the norm, but it is every bit as important. From what I have read Zen Judo does have some good points, but goes to far in attacking the principles that Dr. Kano had in mind when he created Judo. They are flat out beyond reproach. With this being said it would be nice to see a little more respect for my type of club. I am a member of the USJA, however, after reading promotion literature from the USJF our club members would take double or triple the amount of time to achieve pomotions given that our use of he art is not competition driven. Don't get me wrong if I was told that my rank would be frozen forever I would gladly train with my club without a second thought. It would just be nice to see people open their eyes to all applications of this art and give equal respect as well.

Sincerely,
Clint
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#172 User is offline   SODO 

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 02:36 PM

View PostSODO, on 28 December 2010 - 10:30 AM, said:

I have seldom read such arrogant and incorrect BS on this forum

sodo

Dear all,

I recieved a PM about this post claiming that I was insulting the originator of the post I was reffering to, If I have upset anybody I apologise BUT I was insulted by this post,I found it to be full of insulting generalisations about judoka that do not follow the Kyu shin do/Zen judo way.

And that from a representitive of an association that proclaims a bogus history (although that is always changing), connections to Kyu shin do that do not exist, technical standards that are at best questionable and high dan grades with titles like shihan, custodian, renshi etc.. :big grin: and basicaly bad judo, but of course that can all be explained away because unless you have learned this style of judo, you will not understand it and see how superior it is :lol:

atb

sodo
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#173 User is offline   rokudan 

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 10:54 PM

View PostSODO, on 29 December 2010 - 02:36 PM, said:

Dear all,

I recieved a PM about this post claiming that I was insulting the originator of the post I was reffering to, If I have upset anybody I apologise BUT I was insulted by this post,I found it to be full of insulting generalisations about judoka that do not follow the Kyu shin do/Zen judo way.

And that from a representitive of an association that proclaims a bogus history (although that is always changing), connections to Kyu shin do that do not exist, technical standards that are at best questionable and high dan grades with titles like shihan, custodian, renshi etc.. :big grin: and basicaly bad judo, but of course that can all be explained away because unless you have learned this style of judo, you will not understand it and see how superior it is :lol:

atb

sodo


I'm afraid I have to disagree with you Sodo when you describe it as "bad judo". It is not judo at all that most of us would recognise. Just look at the pictures posted previously in this thread. You would expect a novice to be able to demonstrate techniques better than that. It is simply nonsence to suggest that this is "their" style of judo as a means of excusing exceptionally poor technique.
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#174 User is offline   jb1144 

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 01:05 AM

I know nothing about this organization. But I followed the link that was posted, and my first impression was that the technique being shown in their posted photos was exceptionally poor.
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#175 User is offline   jb1144 

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 01:30 AM

this is the link I followed http://gordonlawson....d.com/id27.html

And according to this article, it also appears that the founder actually studied Kodokan Judo in the 1930's.
Please correct me if I'm wrong. I don't claim to be an expert. I've only studied Judo and some Aikido. But if the photo's I've seen are typical representation of the technical ability. that's scary.

http://www.kyushindo...istory_new.html
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