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Teaching technique over strengh Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Nat Ciesla 

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 02:25 AM

There are a couple of brown belts in my club that have picked up a number of bad habits, particularly muscling people around. one has significant experience in BJJ, the other in Krav Maga. I've always been a big fan of leading by example, but I'm having difficulty with this, as they are both bigger than me. I am not a large person by any means. I'm 5'6", and about 155lbs. Even though I outrank them both (i'm a shodan) it's nothing for either of them to crunch me into the mat. I'd like to think I have better technique, but I can't seem to demonstrate that in randori.

I can yell at them about this all I want, but it doesn't do any good. I was hoping that some of the very strong and very good people in their weight classes could show them the higher road in shiai, but one hasn't returned to it yet after shoulder surgery. The bjj-er continually gets thrown for ippon in shiai, but doesn't care, as he wants to beat them as his game, not theirs. (i.e. newaza)

anyone have any elegant (or non-) solutions/ideas?
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#2 User is offline   RagingDemon 

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 04:38 AM

Strength dies out eventually, technique does not. Just try to endure and tire him out. Survive survive survive. It could mess with his head. Make him think he can't do anything to you by gripping more efficiently to block his attacks.
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#3 User is offline   Doctor Horrible 

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:06 AM

Remembering that you asked for the most elegant solution:

Get stronger. This solution is so simple, so obvious and so clean, that it's often overlooked.

That may sound glib, but consider the ROI on the various options. To get good at something takes time; often quite a lot of time. The technical solution to your question has several possible answers...but the training how-to would likely take 12-18 months, *assuming* you could get the right instruction and feedback. That's a lot of time invested - which is fine and good.

OTOH, in order to get stronger - a lot stronger - you would only need to devote 1-1.5hrs a WEEK to specific training, for a matter of 3-6 months. It's basically a no-fail solution, requiring just a soupçon on intelligence, no expensive travel, 1-on-1 tuition, time away from family etc.

I mention this because I have a friend who in the course of a year went from 200lbs in the deadlift to 500lbs, whilst training in martial arts. That's double his bodyweight. He has two kids and is self employed, so he's a busy guy.

Just for fun, he's thinking about hitting 600lbs in a few months - triple his bodyweight - in order to test a theory. The theory being 'strength uber alles'.

Back to my friend: Yes, his is an unlikely outcome - I suspect he's 2/3 simian. OTOH, I found his training methodology converged on something like 'best practice given finite resources'. More or less, he got strong by training dead-lifting and bench pressing a few times a week; that's it as far as direct strength training went.

Coming back to the question of ROI; could you double your current skill level in 6 months? No? But you *could* do something like that to your strength.

Please remember, you asked about 'elegant and simple'. The elegant and simple solution is to get a lot stronger whilst maintaining your skill level. Note too that getting stronger doesn't mean bulking up or being in the gym 24/7. I'm specifically talking about getting stronger - think of farmers, blacksmiths etc and not body builders.

There are other solutions, too - and I'm also purposely glossing over 'applied strength' - but in essence, I don't think it gets more elegant then that.

PS: as for strength fading with age, here's a 60 yr old man flipping over a tractor.


This post has been edited by Doctor Horrible: 03 October 2012 - 05:25 AM

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#4 User is offline   Nat Ciesla 

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:34 AM

That's not the point, it's not about me being able to throw them, it's about them learning to throw correctly

and, well, yeah, i'm working on the strength part.


Maybe I should have phrased it as, "How do I get people to stop using strength as a crutch?"

This post has been edited by Nat Ciesla: 03 October 2012 - 05:38 AM

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#5 User is offline   Maleran 

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 06:10 AM

View PostNat Ciesla, on 03 October 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

That's not the point, it's not about me being able to throw them, it's about them learning to throw correctly

and, well, yeah, i'm working on the strength part.


Maybe I should have phrased it as, "How do I get people to stop using strength as a crutch?"

If they have the right character, ask them to train with females and kids.
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#6 User is offline   Doctor Horrible 

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 07:00 AM

View PostNat Ciesla, on 03 October 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

That's not the point, it's not about me being able to throw them, it's about them learning to throw correctly

and, well, yeah, i'm working on the strength part.


Maybe I should have phrased it as, "How do I get people to stop using strength as a crutch?"


I beg your pardon; I may have misread your post. In fairness, you did write:

Quote

I'd like to think I have better technique, but I can't seem to demonstrate that in randori.

I can yell at them about this all I want, but it doesn't do any good


Without context, that reminds me a lot of the Jim Carey "You attacked me wrong!" SNL sketch.

For sake of restatement though: In order to throw 'correctly', one needs to have the requisite strength AND correct application thereof.

No strength is bad, and poorly applied strength is equally bad.

As for how to actually convince others of that: sometimes you just can't, and that's fine. I stopped trying to convince people of things a long time ago. Instead, take what they give you and find a way to improve your own game in such a manner that it blossom from what they do. If the difference is 'they're strong', increasing your own strength will allow you to resist getting pulled down into the mat and encourage the kind of play you'd like to see.

OTOH, if you're talking about teaching pedagogy (are you the instructor there?), that's another topic and it's going to involve a rethink - assuming the others in your group are open to that.

I can speak a little to that too, but please do clarify your meaning

This post has been edited by Doctor Horrible: 03 October 2012 - 07:38 AM

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
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#7 User is offline   Gant 

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:05 PM

View PostNat Ciesla, on 02 October 2012 - 09:25 PM, said:

one hasn't returned to it yet after shoulder surgery.
...
The bjj-er continually gets thrown for ippon in shiai, but doesn't care, as he wants to beat them as his game, not theirs. (i.e. newaza)

anyone have any elegant (or non-) solutions/ideas?


Sounds like the problem is solving itself.

View PostDoctor Horrible, on 03 October 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

Just for fun, he's thinking about hitting 600lbs in a few months - triple his bodyweight - in order to test a theory. The theory being 'strength uber alles'.


Diminishing returns. I don't think there's much judo carryover beyond 450 or so in the DL. Your friend would be better served by ramping his power clean up to 1.2-1.3x BW or more.
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#8 User is offline   bythesea 

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:41 PM

View PostNat Ciesla, on 02 October 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

There are a couple of brown belts in my club that have picked up a number of bad habits, particularly muscling people around. one has significant experience in BJJ, the other in Krav Maga. I've always been a big fan of leading by example, but I'm having difficulty with this, as they are both bigger than me. I am not a large person by any means. I'm 5'6", and about 155lbs. Even though I outrank them both (i'm a shodan) it's nothing for either of them to crunch me into the mat. I'd like to think I have better technique, but I can't seem to demonstrate that in randori.

I can yell at them about this all I want, but it doesn't do any good. I was hoping that some of the very strong and very good people in their weight classes could show them the higher road in shiai, but one hasn't returned to it yet after shoulder surgery. The bjj-er continually gets thrown for ippon in shiai, but doesn't care, as he wants to beat them as his game, not theirs. (i.e. newaza)

anyone have any elegant (or non-) solutions/ideas?


I think in this case you CAN lead by example. The problem you are facing with these two guys is the problem everyone faces constantly in judo. There's always someone better. In your case, you have done the right thing in my opinion: be concerned that you can practice what you preach. You can lead by doing as we generally recommend to beginners: don't get discouraged, learn by attacking, get thrown, show good ukemi. Just keep at these guys with determination, experiment, and never give up. That is a wonderful example to set for your students, including doing so with grace, humility and a good attitude.

Many beginners in my club ask me for advice on their techniques, and see me as someone who 'knows'. So, when it comes time for randori, and I am with a partner who is going to school me, I often feel sort of fraudulent, or at least a tremendous pressure to live up to the advice I've given, and to be able to 'handle' a bigger, tougher partner. But, sometimes I can't because I'm simply not good enough. So this would leave me feeling a bit uncertain (at least in my own eyes). At some point I decided to take the advice I give the beginning students: I try my techniques, pracitce my ukemi, and pop right up and keep coming back for more. If I fail I fail. So be it. So, when I'm against someone I can't easily throw -- I do as best I can, until the gas tank runs out. Which unfortunately these days is all too soon. lol

This post has been edited by bythesea: 05 October 2012 - 03:08 PM

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#9 User is offline   Ricebalereversal 

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:44 PM

Just match them with each other for 6 rounds of hard randoori then play with them while you are fresh. They'll learn eventually.
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#10 User is offline   Nic 

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:45 PM

Sounds like the BJJ guy is a real hard head. If he's already losing regularly in Judo shiai and yet he refuses to improve his stand up, then maybe he doesn't want to improve.

Why are you trying to teach these guys technique over strength? It sounds as if the BJJ guy has no desire to improve his game, so why waste your breath on him?

Personally I think the best lesson for a person using muscle rather than technique is to be out-techniqued! (Is that a word?). If a smaller or weaker person can use technique to dominate a stronger guy then maybe the big guy will start to listen when you tell them that technique rules. If you out muscle them I'm not sure what they will learn. Though being strong will help you use your technique I guess. Give them something to be concerned with, become faster or be cleverer than them. Maybe then they will pay attention.
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#11 User is offline   Doctor Horrible 

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 03:21 AM

View PostGant, on 03 October 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

Sounds like the problem is solving itself.





Diminishing returns. I don't think there's much judo carryover beyond 450 or so in the DL. Your friend would be better served by ramping his power clean up to 1.2-1.3x BW or more.


Well, the triple body weight thing is "because it's there". You have to admit there's something oddly fun about shooting for something like that, as long as it doesn't cut into other stuff.

Power-cleans; wouldn't be surprised if he hits 1.2-1.3 soon (if not there already).

The interesting thing is that thanks to the weights, he has an easier time luring people into his game. Hard and fast when he wants or smooth and technical. His strength allows him to influence the exchange - which is the point I was trying to get across.
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#12 User is offline   JudoSensei 

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 03:45 AM

Maybe you could try other forms of randori focusing on less resistance, trading throws, no counters, one attacker only, etc. If they are permitted to use all their strength every time, and it is relatively successful, it will become a habit that will be hard to break. Such habits could perhaps be changed by repeated practice without so much strength, so try restricting the amount of strength they can use during randori to help develop a lighter more flexible approach.
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#13 User is offline   Doctor Horrible 

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:03 AM

^ I agree with that, especially if it's within the scope of the exchange (instructor : student). OTOH, the dynamics can be a little different if it's peer : peer. I think, generally, you're going to encounter one of two responses. The first (positive) one will be "Hey, that sounds interesting. Show me how".

The second response is generally less positive and more akin to "Well, who the $@#$#@ are you to tell me what to do? I can kick your $R@#$, so your opinion amounts to squat".

Sadly, given the hierarchical nature of most martial arts, people sometimes play pecking order games, which get in the way of progress and unity. "If I can beat you up, why should I listen to you?" kind of thinking.

In those cases, it can be futile to insist on change - the person is either not willing, not smart enough or not ready to explore other options.

IMHO, in both cases (teacher:student, peer:peer) a certain base level of mutual respect and willingness is required in order to explore new things. To that end, there's something to be said about gaining trust and respect - either physically (by being strong, not out of shape, knowing your stuff etc) and /or the way you behave on the mat etc.

To the OP

In any case: I've been doing some research on this and surrounding topics in the past little while. I have a video bookmarked that may be relevant. It discusses how to slow down, drills, good learning environment, cooperation. Note: this is from a BJJ perspective, so certain modification may be needed



http://www.onedragon...article_09.html
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#14 User is offline   SODO 

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 08:47 AM

View PostNic, on 03 October 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

Sounds like the BJJ guy is a real hard head. If he's already losing regularly in Judo shiai and yet he refuses to improve his stand up, then maybe he doesn't want to improve.

Why are you trying to teach these guys technique over strength? It sounds as if the BJJ guy has no desire to improve his game, so why waste your breath on him?

Personally I think the best lesson for a person using muscle rather than technique is to be out-techniqued! (Is that a word?). If a smaller or weaker person can use technique to dominate a stronger guy then maybe the big guy will start to listen when you tell them that technique rules. If you out muscle them I'm not sure what they will learn. Though being strong will help you use your technique I guess. Give them something to be concerned with, become faster or be cleverer than them. Maybe then they will pay attention.



Just call ippon when he is thrown and then mattè, don't let him settle into ne waza when you are supposed to be practicing tachi waza :-)

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#15 User is offline   Dutch 

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 09:22 AM

View PostDoctor Horrible, on 04 October 2012 - 07:03 AM, said:

^ I agree with that, especially if it's within the scope of the exchange (instructor : student). OTOH, the dynamics can be a little different if it's peer : peer. I think, generally, you're going to encounter one of two responses. The first (positive) one will be "Hey, that sounds interesting. Show me how".

The second response is generally less positive and more akin to "Well, who the $@#$#@ are you to tell me what to do? I can kick your $R@#$, so your opinion amounts to squat".

Sadly, given the hierarchical nature of most martial arts, people sometimes play pecking order games, which get in the way of progress and unity. "If I can beat you up, why should I listen to you?" kind of thinking.

In those cases, it can be futile to insist on change - the person is either not willing, not smart enough or not ready to explore other options.

IMHO, in both cases (teacher:student, peer:peer) a certain base level of mutual respect and willingness is required in order to explore new things. To that end, there's something to be said about gaining trust and respect - either physically (by being strong, not out of shape, knowing your stuff etc) and /or the way you behave on the mat etc.

To the OP

In any case: I've been doing some research on this and surrounding topics in the past little while. I have a video bookmarked that may be relevant. It discusses how to slow down, drills, good learning environment, cooperation. Note: this is from a BJJ perspective, so certain modification may be needed



http://www.onedragon...article_09.html


Hehe funny, I know the guy in the video personally. He's from denmark, great guy!
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