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Ko soto gari, Ko soto gake or Tani otoshi? help me!! Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Glorfindel 

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:13 PM

http://www.facebook....150188157495725

What was that???
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#2 User is offline   bythesea 

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:19 PM

I'd definitely say kosoto gari. I always think of gake as having the foot planted on the tatami (could be wrong there).

Don't you just love it when Neil Adams does the judo play by play? I love listening to him call judo.
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#3 User is offline   JudoMojo 

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:22 PM

My vote goes to kosoto gake.
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#4 User is offline   Glorfindel 

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:39 PM

Guys, i'm a Judo noob, can you explain me why ??

There is some guys saying it's a Nidan-Ko-Soto-Gake...

I dont see a sutemi waza (tani otoshi) in that technique, but like i said, i'm a noob.





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MMA/judo/catch wrestling

Sorry for my english, i'm french (Quebec)
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#5 User is offline   billc 

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:40 PM

View Postbythesea, on 04 April 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

Don't you just love it when Neil Adams does the judo play by play? I love listening to him call judo.


Brilliant!
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#6 User is offline   Jonesy 

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:50 PM

Nidan kosoto gari (he is sweeping away the far foot/leg).
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#7 User is offline   bythesea 

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:55 PM

View PostGlorfindel, on 04 April 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

Guys, i'm a Judo noob, can you explain me why ??

There is some guys saying it's a Nidan-Ko-Soto-Gake...

I dont see a sutemi waza (tani otoshi) in that technique, but like i said, i'm a noob.


I love nidan kosoto gari as well as kosoto gari of the far leg after osoto gari. Often it happens when tori is just a tad too late for the initial attack, but uke has to make a major weight shift to protect their balance -- which you are waiting for. I could see calling this nidan kosoto gari or gake. But it's all kosoto gari in the end.

I definitely would not call this tani otoshi. The clue is the word otoshi - drop. There's no sudden level change here, and as you pointed no sacrifice.

Here is a classic example IMO of nidan kosoto gari:


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#8 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:59 PM

View Postbythesea, on 05 April 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

I'd definitely say kosoto gari. I always think of gake as having the foot planted on the tatami (could be wrong there).

Don't you just love it when Neil Adams does the judo play by play? I love listening to him call judo.


'Definitely' ? <_<
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#9 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:00 PM

View PostJudoMojo, on 05 April 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:

My vote goes to kosoto gake.


:unsure:
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
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#10 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:01 PM

View Postbythesea, on 05 April 2012 - 06:55 AM, said:

I love nidan kosoto gari as well as kosoto gari of the far leg after osoto gari. Often it happens when tori is just a tad too late for the initial attack, but uke has to make a major weight shift to protect their balance -- which you are waiting for. I could see calling this nidan kosoto gari or gake. But it's all kosoto gari in the end.

I definitely would not call this tani otoshi. The clue is the word otoshi - drop. There's no sudden level change here, and as you pointed no sacrifice.

Here is a classic example IMO of nidan kosoto gari:




And you sincerely are arguing that what is done in the shiai video is the same as what is shown here by Okano-sensei ? :unsure:
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
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#11 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:02 PM

View PostGlorfindel, on 05 April 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

Guys, i'm a Judo noob, can you explain me why ??

There is some guys saying it's a Nidan-Ko-Soto-Gake...


Maybe it isn't even judo, but BJJ ... :ph34r:
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
"I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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#12 User is offline   bythesea 

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:55 PM

View PostCichorei Kano, on 04 April 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

And you sincerely are arguing that what is done in the shiai video is the same as what is shown here by Okano-sensei ? :unsure:


lol. No, I was sincerely arguing that that video is the classic example I think of when I think of nidan kosoto gari. As far as the original video, I think I made my uncertainty as to it's relationship to kosoto-gari/kosoto gake/ nidan kosoto gari clear. What I said it definitely was (IMO of course) was kosoto-something (i.e. the kosoto gari principle), and not tani otoshi.

Would you consider this throw kosoto gari or kosoto gake? In the end would you say this is kosoto-something, or would you classify this technique differently?
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#13 User is offline   BillyMac 

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 10:04 PM

What about tsubame gaeshi?

I have no idea where the original throw by Peters was going, Deashi Harai, Ouchi Gari? Seriously I am having a hard time.

The footwork and grip change timing seems backwards (at least to a dolt like me)

(Actually I guess the timing would have been perfect if Peters didn't whiff the leg)

We need to find these orphaned throws a good home.

This post has been edited by BillyMac: 04 April 2012 - 10:21 PM

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#14 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 11:14 PM

View Postbythesea, on 05 April 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

lol. No, I was sincerely arguing that that video is the classic example I think of when I think of nidan kosoto gari. As far as the original video, I think I made my uncertainty as to it's relationship to kosoto-gari/kosoto gake/ nidan kosoto gari clear. What I said it definitely was (IMO of course) was kosoto-something (i.e. the kosoto gari principle), and not tani otoshi.

Would you consider this throw kosoto gari or kosoto gake? In the end would you say this is kosoto-something, or would you classify this technique differently?


What was shown in the competition video cannot possibly be nidan ko-soto-gari. Nidan is a specific way of entry, just like mawari-komi and oikomi are ways of entry. There is nothing in the VdG video that has anything to do with a ni-dan entry.

As is often the case in competion, the throw is not 'clean' in a sense that it does not have proper tsukuri or debana, but these are compensated through grip, power, and athleticism. In any case, what is shown, cannot be ko-soto-gari, by lack of a reaping action.
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
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#15 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 11:18 PM

View Postdanguy, on 05 April 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

gari the contact is the back of uke's heel with a reaping action (Think horizontal cutting action with no intent to bear any of uke's leg weight).

gake the contact is the outside of the ankle with a scoop and lift (Think an upwards non-horizontal action bearing a small amount of uke's leg weight).


'Gake' does not require the outside of the ankle to be the point of contact. The point of contact can be exactly the same as in ko-soto-gari, whether that is the heel or another part of the foot or leg.
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
"I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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