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Grappling ineffective ? Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   LatinJudoka 

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 04:53 PM

I found this on google.ca and found it very interesting . I was wondering is grappling / judo is completely useless in self-defense situations ?

http://www.attackpro...lf-defense.html
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#2 User is offline   RayEdinburgh 

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 05:32 PM

No. Judo when practiced in full (not just sport Judo but "big" judo), and used by a competent judoka in a real self defence situation can be highly effective. I do agree fully with the article in the link, your priority in any self defence situation is to stay on your feet, if you go to the ground it's because you have seriously mismanaged the whole encounter, and your only thoughts should be to cover and protect whilst immediatly getting back to your feet. Do not ever willingly go to the ground, cool turnovers into arm or leg locks may be usefull in a dojo or a cage but on the street it will get you hurt.

Whilst i teach and practice judo for self defence and make use of the full plethora of techniques in the dojo, my personal preference for self defence and what i have used in real life is very basic, simple good strong body language, using my hands as a fence, good verbal skills (all of which has taken years of practice standing on doors to get right) when i see the guy begin to flap, the abusive sentences at the interview stage diminish to one word sentences and the glint in the eye shows they are about to go for it, i engage the brain with a question and before they get the chance to answer i close my hand and land a right cross to the lower jaw, follow up with a left hook to the floating rib and the situations over and done. I learned the whole scenario when i was younger watchning Geoff Thomson video's (yip before dvd's!) and practiced it to death.

Whilst this works a lot of the time there is obviously other options, and the situation wont always require throwing the punches, also the whole world seems to be caught on cctv now where days gone by it wasnt so you could do this without comeback from the law, Judo in other situations can be superb, from grabs of varying types you cant beat Judo, if you go through the ranges to stand up grappling, the judoka is in his or her own zone and when merited throws such as o soto are my favourite. Their is no better striking weapon than concrete!

Back to the article though, absolutly...do not grapple on the deck! unless theres a ref and a mat.
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#3 User is offline   Emanuele 

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:05 PM

It depends by the judoka too. For example I would fear more a Teddy Riner in the street rather a Junpei Morishita.
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#4 User is offline   Hedgehogey 

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:40 PM

Theses dudes have been done before
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#5 User is offline   GregW 

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:54 PM

For me, self-defense means being able to get away from a dangerous situation without me being the one suffering serious bodily harm or death. It doesn't mean submitting someone or disabling them, but simply negating attacks with sufficient alacrity to allow me to get away or discourage further aggression. For this, judo is very effective. I've only been in a couple of situations where I've had to use it. In each situation, I was amazed at how effective judo was against an aggressor who didn't know judo. We practice with fully resisting adversaries who know judo. They know the counters to the various techniques and can apply judo techniques themselves. It's a lot harder to throw a fellow judoka than some bully or a belligerent drunk.

In the situations that confronted me, it was relatively easy to toss the person and have them hit the floor, which is certainly disorienting to an aggressor. I was able to stay on my feet and react to additional threats or to just leave the area. In the case of bullies, it's amazing how hitting the floor takes the wind out of their sails. It's embarrassing to them, and bullies are all about ego and dominance. They pick victims that they believe will have "zero cost" to their reputation. When they end up on the floor suddenly, they look around quickly to see who else saw them go down. If no one else saw it, they'll often abandon their aggression for the moment and retreat to save face.

In terms of self-defense, we must also consider that the law usually recognizes an individual's right to use minimum force to protect himself. If the defender goes out of his way to do harm and turns aggressor, he opens himself up for legal liabilities. In this case, it's sufficient to toss the attacker and stay on your feet to run. That way you don't get sued for doing unnecessary damage in a legal system that might interpret your attacker as being the victim. Self-defense doesn't mean leaving an aggressor permanently disabled, injured, or dead. We don't live in a Chuck Norris/Bruce Lee world. We live in a world of journalists, lawyers, and judges.

Judo, rightly implemented, using the principles of jita kyoei and seiroku zenyo will protect us on multiple levels.
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#6 User is offline   judoratt 

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 11:59 PM

View PostEmanuele, on 31 March 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

It depends by the judoka too. For example I would fear more a Teddy Riner in the street rather a Junpei Morishita.



I think Morishita would do just fine.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Someone would underestimate 66k and it could be more dangerous.
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#7 User is offline   Ricebalereversal 

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 05:23 AM

Yeah that Controlled Chaos is awesome, almost as awesome as The Hurticane:



Destroy up to 10 men or 14 dwarfs, grappling can't do that
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#8 User is offline   danguy 

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 05:31 AM

View PostEmanuele, on 31 March 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

It depends by the judoka too. For example I would fear more a Teddy Riner in the street rather a Junpei Morishita.

I know Judo, teach Judo, self defense as well as other junk, I am older, may be slow and you should fear me because not for my Judo, you should fear me and many others because you have no idea what weapons I or they carry on the street. Self defense uses fighting only when other action to avoid engagement fails; and the fighting is only limited by the local laws.
If I am doing "win," sloppy and sissy is fine; if I am doing Judo, beautiful is my rule and goal. Judo is far more important and rewarding than "win."

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#9 User is offline   up-and-over! 

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 06:34 AM

It's silly coz he keeps going on about WAR self defende is not a world war 3 is it now everyone will have guns and are miles apart, so of corse u won't be throwing anyone. Anyway, if someone broke into my house I would ippon-seao -nage and then arm lock but break there arm and you are all sorted :D
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#10 User is offline   7thCuil 

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 08:24 AM

View Postup-and-over!, on 02 April 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

It's silly coz he keeps going on about WAR self defende is not a world war 3 is it now everyone will have guns and are miles apart, so of corse u won't be throwing anyone. Anyway, if someone broke into my house I would ippon-seao -nage and then arm lock but break there arm and you are all sorted :D


Is breaking the arm really necesary? I understand not taking any chances, but if you can get into an effective armlock you should be able to follow them
into a pin easily enough, and then they are subdued and no one gets (severly) hurt. Break their arm and you might also be on shaky ground legally? It
all depends on the circumstances and threat level.
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#11 User is offline   Mr. Ted 

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 08:54 PM

View PostLystra, on 02 April 2012 - 01:24 AM, said:

Is breaking the arm really necesary? I understand not taking any chances, but if you can get into an effective armlock you should be able to follow them
into a pin easily enough, and then they are subdued and no one gets (severly) hurt. Break their arm and you might also be on shaky ground legally? It
all depends on the circumstances and threat level.


Well depending on the situation a person can be legally protected if they are acting in self defense but, discussing the hypothetical situations that would constitute a self defense clause that can happen would be just opening another can of worms.
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#12 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 04:35 PM

Best self defence is learning how to avoid situations where you may need it.

Failing that its not the art but the individual that will count on BOTH sides from the perp' to would be victim.

No golden rules or magic advice. We are all vunerable and possible victims.

Mike
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#13 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 04:40 PM

View Postup-and-over!, on 02 April 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

........ Anyway, if someone broke into my house I would ippon-seao -nage and then arm lock but break there arm and you are all sorted :D


Hey I know you are a junior judoka and full of beans. If the time ever came when some one broke into your house the major thing to do is GET out and raise help.

Dont grow up thinking any different or if worse comes to the worse we would loose you to some perp'. Self defence is preservation. If you can get away get away. Be brave in doing so not stupid by fighting.

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#14 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 04:51 PM

Ermmm, perhaps a little reality check?

Being attacked is not at all what you think it is. In most circumstances the attacker is prepared both physically and psychologically, he will have 100% advantge over us.

Never think 10, 20, 40, 60 years of judo or any MA will be an automatic safe guard.

Be hosest, how often has a child in your own family snook up on us and made us jump out of our skin. My grandson does this to me as he laughs his head off! Little ....dear :huh: If that had been a chap with a knife I would be skewered. He would then use my obi to hang me out to dry!

If a street attack comes it is SO fast before we know where we are we are already either out or speaking to St Peter.

Of course we all like to think we are capable and prepared. Unless one is preapred to develop an alarming level of paranoia one is never (seldom) prepared.

IF one is given a warning the thing to do is get the hell away from the situation. Be brave in running away. The heros are buried.

SD is so much talk yet......It never happens like you expect it to. To me real SD is seeing the danger starting and avoiding it.
Use your brains and so often your hands will need nothing to do.

Keep safe.

Mike

This post has been edited by Hanon: 03 April 2012 - 04:55 PM

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#15 User is offline   RayEdinburgh 

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 05:20 PM

View PostHanon, on 03 April 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

Ermmm, perhaps a little reality check?

Being attacked is not at all what you think it is. In most circumstances the attacker is prepared both physically and psychologically, he will have 100% advantge over us.

Never think 10, 20, 40, 60 years of judo or any MA will be an automatic safe guard.

Be hosest, how often has a child in your own family snook up on us and made us jump out of our skin. My grandson does this to me as he laughs his head off! Little ....dear :huh: If that had been a chap with a knife I would be skewered. He would then use my obi to hang me out to dry!

If a street attack comes it is SO fast before we know where we are we are already either out or speaking to St Peter.

Of course we all like to think we are capable and prepared. Unless one is preapred to develop an alarming level of paranoia one is never (seldom) prepared.

IF one is given a warning the thing to do is get the hell away from the situation. Be brave in running away. The heros are buried.

SD is so much talk yet......It never happens like you expect it to. To me real SD is seeing the danger starting and avoiding it.
Use your brains and so often your hands will need nothing to do.

Keep safe.

Mike


Well said, If someone has it in mind to attack you then they are highly unlikely to confront you first, i wouldnt!, all the self defence/martial arts training in the world wont prepare you for a bat around the back of the head, but...not all situations happen by surprise and a huge amount of self defence situations come in stages, from minor incident to arguing, to fight or flight, to attack(or back down) the best defence is to use your body language and mouth, dont let ego get you hurt, hard as that might be. People are killed in confrontations.
The best self defence tool you can have is to develop a good "fence" learn all the signs of body lanuage associated with these situations, and if nessesery the pre-emptive strike. Practicing self defence,esspecially judo for self defence is though a valid pursuit, not only does it build the confidence required to carry yourself as a strong confident individual, and therefore an unlikely soft target, it does give you the nessesary skills that hopefully you'll never feel the need to use.

As Mike says, use your brain and you'll never (fingers crossed) need to use your hands (only for a fence! :big grin: )
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