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Using Sacrifice Throws to Attack? Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Mix and Match 

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 04:50 AM

Hi,

I'm an avid BJJ competitor who also has started training Judo 1-2 days a week to become a more rounded grappler. I've found that my strongest forward throws by far are Sumi-Gaeshi / Hikkomi-Gaeshi / Obi-Tori-Gaeshi (I know two distinct variations, but are unsure what to name them as. Searching through this forum, it seems that a lot of judo players are in disagreement as to how to classify them). In BJJ I do them a lot when someone's trying to pass my guard, and I find it even easier to do from standing since I can generate so much momentum if I initiate the technique from my feet.

I also like it because I get it to work when the opponent is standing hunched over with their legs and hips back and their arms extended forwards. Most of the other judo white belts do this, and I see it a lot in BJJ competitions. I can even get it to work on higher Judo belts if I set them up to break their posture first.

I don't do it to pull guard (a big reason why I started Judo is because I hate pulling guard). If it fails, I normally just create space and then stand up.

But whenever I do it in randori, my coach tells me off, saying not to do "BJJ s@!t" and that sacrifice throws (Sutemi-Waza) should only be used as a counter to being thrown. He says that using them to attack is "not good Judo" and instead I should focus on the throws we do uchikomi and nagekomi with, like Seoi-Nage, O-Goshi and O-Soto-Gari.

But the thing is I can never get these throws when my opponent is bent over with their weight low to the ground and arms forward. I know that they would get penalised for stalling in a Judo competition, but I would rather win by throwing than on penalties. Plus the rules on stalling in BJJ are a lot less strict. Also I have years of experience doing them from on the ground in BJJ.

I am 5 foot 8 (173 cms) and weigh 175lbs (80kgs). I've pretty strong from years of doing weights, but am not flexible at all (another reason why I like these throws).

I would like to hear the opinions of people from this board. Thanks in advance :)

This post has been edited by Mix and Match: 29 March 2012 - 04:50 AM

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#2 User is offline   Kodenkan/Kodokan 

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 08:15 AM

The only times I have lost in shiai were when I attempted sutemi waza. The last shiai I competed in (only brown) I decided not to use any sutemi waza and I took gold in a really big pool. Of course, sutemi waza has a place in competition, I just thought I should share my experience (limited as it is).
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#3 User is offline   jkw 

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 08:16 AM

Typically in judo, sutemi-waza are learned and practiced after one has at least a rudimentary ability at standing throws. Perhaps this is what your coach is saying?

I guess it partly comes down to your goals in learning judo. If you want to develop your judo, then focus on seoi-nage, o-goshi, o-soto-gari and so on. Study how to apply them in a wide range of situations, including when your partner is hunched over. Randori can be an opportunity to test techniques you are not so good at (as well as practice ukemi).

But if you're wanting to use judo training sessions as a chance to sharpen up your current BJJ skills in a standing context, then working the sutemi-waza you currently know would do that. Maybe just let your coach know your intentions and he can help?

This post has been edited by jkw: 29 March 2012 - 08:19 AM

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#4 User is offline   stacey 

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 08:27 AM

sutemi waza should be used cautiously.

I agree with jkw - you really shouldn't be using sutemi waza until you've got a grip on your more standard throws. I mean, barring what Captain Kirk did in Star Trek, it's really not a good idea to attack with a sacrifice in a self defense situation.

In a judo shiai, you're hoping and praying that the judge sees your sutemi waza as YOUR throw, and doesn't give ippon to your opponent.

In class randori sessions, you're wasting valuable training time. If all you're doing is throwing sutemi waza or setting up for sutemi waza, I'm spending a fair amount of time standing around, waiting for you to stand up.

Yes, in bjj, these throws are a bit better than just pulling guard, so if you really want to polish them, keep them to bjj class until you've got a few forward and back throws down.

And, yes, your coach would consider it bjj 5h!t - you're flopping to the ground to engage in groundwork instead of standing and trying to get a regular throw, especially when you bypass learning ippon seio nage or something to do a sacrifice. It's like a yellow belt too scared to do anything but tanya otoshi who thinks s/he's great because s/he can get it on people in tournament. Annoying as all get out in class, and s/he doesn't progress that fast because there's no attempt at learning everything that goes with learning forward and back throws.
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#5 User is offline   herbo1 

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 08:43 AM

View PostMix and Match, on 29 March 2012 - 04:50 AM, said:


I also like it because I get it to work when the opponent is standing hunched over with their legs and hips back and their arms extended forwards. Most of the other judo white belts do this, and I see it a lot in BJJ competitions.

But the thing is I can never get these throws when my opponent is bent over with their weight low to the ground and arms forward.


The points I've highlighted are the problems here. You're new to judo and are trying to make your BJJ experience count, which is fine, but you're doing it at the expense of building solid judo fundamentals. You're not yet skilled enough to pull off the big throws so instead of taking the hard route and working on them tirelessly in randori you're resorting to sacrifice throws as you are getting some success at this point. Your coach sounds like he is attempting to get my points through to you, although perhaps more bluntly.

You are by no means alone, I know a BJJ blue belt/ judo 4th kyu who tries to rely on tomoe nage, also bigger guys tend to do this type of thing with makkikomi throws. What they all have in common is that their tachi-waza progresses much slower than their peers who focus on the "classics" and throws which build into combinations with their tokui-waza.

So, in summary, listen to your coach and become a judoka not just a BJJer who does judo. Good luck.
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#6 User is offline   davewa 

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 09:34 AM

I love doing sutemi they are great fun but as others have said caution needs to be used, mainly for the sake of your partner. You must realise that a full on throw requires a lot of skill in rolling out of the throw being done on you. Severeal of them are very dangerous and neck, back and shoulder injuries can occur if you cannot roll well.

As far as self defence goes they are very good if you are being pushed backwards, or in a heasdlock, or being charged at like a rugby tackle. I love Ura Nage against a hip throw, i used it alot in comps many years ago and it worked ever time until all the guys I trained with saw what I was doing. Suemi should be used sparingly and cannot be relied apon all the time, what if you have limited space in a crowded area, the same applies to going to ground all the time , dumb move. If it is appropriate the effects are there to see but if not you are on the ground with someone raining down on you with knees and fists.

Lastly Kuzushi is very important and momentum adds to the spectacular appeal of the throw.
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#7 User is offline   Dutch 

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 10:00 AM

Sumi Gaeshi en Yoko-tomoe nage are my two favourite sutemi. I use them offensively, but Ive been doing Judo for more than 10 years. They are quite complicated throws to get them done properly. But in my opinion they are two throws of great offensive value, sure they can be used as counters, but only in a very few instances. So it would be a waste of a good throw.
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#8 User is offline   Co tenBroek 

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 10:12 AM

OK, I'm going to go against the grain here. Sutemi are not advanced Judo nor are they Bad Judo. The falls from them may be a little harder than other throws but that is more a matter of tori rather than the technique.
I suggest you use randori as a chance to learn Judo, don't worry so much about scoring (randori is not competition). Start trying to get your partners to move (it is hard to stay bent over and move well). Use foot sweeps to make them stand up than attempt one of the throws the coach has you working on. If they bend over again throw them with whichever throw you can.

If no one throws the people who bend over they won't learn why that is a bad idea.
The above is just my 2 cents. That and $5 may get you a cup of coffee after practice.
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#9 User is offline   Hedgehogey 

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 10:36 AM

Your coach sounds like kindof a moron if he thinks an entire class of throws are "bad judo". But then again "bad judo" is one of those terms that's so nebulous and subjective it means basically whatever the speaker wants it to mean.

You should be trying for new things in randori. That's one of the reasons it exists. So try throws you're not good with many times, especially with fellow beginners. That being said, there's nothing wrong with sacrifice throws in moderation. Just don't get one dimensional and you're fine. I'm hopping around on one foot due to a knee injury right now, so most of the throws I can do are sutemi waza.

But then i've been doing BJJ for seven years and Judo only four, so we probably share the same bias.

This post has been edited by Hedgehogey: 29 March 2012 - 10:37 AM

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#10 User is offline   jkw 

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 11:36 AM

View PostCo tenBroek, on 29 March 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

OK, I'm going to go against the grain here. Sutemi are not advanced Judo nor are they Bad Judo.

If no one throws the people who bend over they won't learn why that is a bad idea.
Co tenBroek


I don't think anyone here is saying sutemi-waza are bad judo or even necessarily 'advanced' -- whatever that means -- but they are also rarely ideal techniques to try and master first as a beginner. You can indeed begin with sutemi-waza, as you could begin learning to cook in the kitchens of El Bulli, but pedagogically this is unlikely to be the most optimal approach for most people (exceptions could be if your instructor is a sutemi expert who focuses on this area, if an injury precludes learning other waza, if you have unusually large amounts of time to train etc...)

White belts who have bad posture can be gently corrected, or thrown with any number of techniques. You don't need sutemi-waza for that.

I think the key question for the OP to decide is whether he wants to practice judo, or instead sharpen his current BJJ standing techniques in the context of judo training. Both options are probably fine (BJJ'ers can comment on that), but if it's the latter, I suggest he let his coach know that these are his intentions as a matter of courtesy.

This post has been edited by jkw: 29 March 2012 - 11:45 AM

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#11 User is offline   Hedgehogey 

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 12:16 PM

It's not an either-or choice. OP can both sharpen existing throws and learn new ones. The fault lies with his instructor for making blanket statements about what you can and can't do in judo. What's next, no guardwork in ne waza?
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#12 User is offline   BomberH 

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 12:23 PM

Listen to your coach and work on upright fundamental throwing techniques. Only start adding sacrifice techniques once you have started to master throws in which you remain standing. This way in the long term you will become far far more proficient at tachiwaza. The route your instructor suggests is harder but in the long term you will benefit.
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#13 User is offline   bigstu31s 

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 12:32 PM

View PostHedgehogey, on 29 March 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

It's not an either-or choice. OP can both sharpen existing throws and learn new ones. The fault lies with his instructor for making blanket statements about what you can and can't do in judo. What's next, no guardwork in ne waza?


The instructor is best placed to make judgment calls on whether he wants a particular student to perform sacrifice throws in randori. I was told the other week in randori that I couldn’t use Uchi-mata, this was most likely because it is my “go to throw” and my instructor would like me to sharpen up other areas of my Judo. The Op’s instructor is most likely doing the same thing with him
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#14 User is offline   SODO 

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 12:42 PM

View PostHedgehogey, on 29 March 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

It's not an either-or choice. OP can both sharpen existing throws and learn new ones. The fault lies with his instructor for making blanket statements about what you can and can't do in judo. What's next, no guardwork in ne waza?



Hi HH,

broadly speaking you are correct, no the big BUT :big grin: depending on the level of the students (age, experience and competence) and instructor has to keep has to keep the lessons geared to student, in a good club there will be structured classes building on the previous class, f.e. we have a six month course plan for the beginners. if someone jumps in with something they have seen or learnt elsewhere (bjj, youtube etc.., TV etc..) it can cause dissruption to the learning process of the group as a whole.
It is sometimes better for the instructor to make broad sweeping statements (rules) which the student finds easier to learn and focus on, once these have been mastered it is easier to teach the exceptions :big grin:.

It is all too easy to falsely fault an instructor here on the forum based on a students comments because only too often the students have missunderstood the points that are being made.

atb

sodo

This post has been edited by SODO: 29 March 2012 - 12:42 PM

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#15 User is offline   Dutch 

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 01:07 PM

View PostSODO, on 29 March 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

It is all too easy to falsely fault an instructor here on the forum based on a students comments because only too often the students have missunderstood the points that are being made.


There is a point to which all of you are saying. But if the instructor really brought it accross like stated in the original post "Dont do that BJJ shite". I can imagine the message as to why not to use sutemi as attack is summat blurred.
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