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Tips on ura nage Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Tafftaz 

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 09:58 PM

Hi guys.
My ura nage in the NNK is woeful to say the least. Looking for tips to improve it.
My biggest problem as tori is my backside makes contact with the tatami before my shoulders.
I have a number of resources such as Formal Techniques by Otaki/Draeger and also the kodokan series of dvds, but some personal tips from my esteemed peers on this forum would be extremely helpful.
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#2 User is offline   judoratt 

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 10:12 PM

Step in deeper and arch your back as you throw.
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#3 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 10:17 PM

View PostTafftaz, on 26 March 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

Hi guys.
My ura nage in the NNK is woeful to say the least. Looking for tips to improve it.
My biggest problem as tori is my backside makes contact with the tatami before my shoulders.
I have a number of resources such as Formal Techniques by Otaki/Draeger and also the kodokan series of dvds, but some personal tips from my esteemed peers on this forum would be extremely helpful.


It is hard to do justice to your requestion via a forum and without actually firs seeing your current technique for ura-nage. However, the single most common mistake in ura-nage in nage-no-kata is that tori insufficiently pushes with his right hand on uke's belly. If he does this properly he will have to push his own belly forward which is then conducive to achieving the position you would like to achieve.
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
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#5 User is offline   Francois 

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 11:12 PM

View PostCichorei Kano, on 25 March 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

It is hard to do justice to your requestion via a forum and without actually firs seeing your current technique for ura-nage. However, the single most common mistake in ura-nage in nage-no-kata is that tori insufficiently pushes with his right hand on uke's belly. If he does this properly he will have to push his own belly forward which is then conducive to achieving the position you would like to achieve.

This is very true. The most common error I have seen tori's part do in ura nage is that there is insufficeint push with the right hand. I have heard from several sensei including Daigo sensei at NNK sessions saying you need to imagine uke's feet going through the ceiling. Again this is making sure you push from the hara and the proper arch will follow assuming your back is in decent shape and you have decent flexibility.

Also timing is key. This just requires a lot of practice between tori and uke and launching the throw at the right time during uke's strike. I can't count how many times I have done NNK but the few times when the timing is right, the throw is effortless and you can launch uke high into the air.

This post has been edited by ptnippon: 25 March 2012 - 11:18 PM

"The arts of peace and the arts of war are like two wheels of a cart which, lacking one, will have difficulty in standing."�Kuroda Nagamasa (1568-1623)

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#6 User is offline   Taigyo 

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 03:45 AM

My breakthrough on this technique was when uke came in very aggressively and basically knocked me over. I tried the throw as I went over backwards and was shocked at how easy it was. I can see how without proper right hand contact there would not a good connection to transfer upward force to uke.
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#7 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:42 AM

This is a hig risk, high level throw. Problems are ukes fear of being thrown badly so he will not attack with gusto then tori must use force and uke gets hurt, sort of vicious circle thing.
Ura nage is a thow that depends very much on the action of uke. Poor uke crap ura nage and general disaster. Good uke, by that I mean hard attack, successful outcome.

During the kake phase tori should 'cast off' uke and not hang onto him dragging him down to the floor or on top of himself.

Use of the hara is vital, as is so many throws.

It's an unforging throw if its performed incorrectly and it generally is.

I can concor with the post of PTNippon sensei and CK Sensei.

When learning this waza supervision form ones sensei is critical.

Mike
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#8 User is offline   slapacus 

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:36 AM

If the uke relaxes to much and does not attack I find this throw hard. My recent attempts for getting this right was with a fellow 110kgs, it was tough until Sensei told him to attack more and avoid going deadweight. I also got told to push more on the belly and arch. Tough throw to do and make look nice/skilfull.
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#9 User is offline   Jacob3 

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:20 AM

For this one, you indeed need an experienced uke who knows how to save himself when things turn out bad. He must not be affraid to really attack, otherwise it will be impossible to throw him/her, unless you are extremely strong.

At my club indeed almost every novice is having trouble with this technique. The often heard complaints is that the weight difference is too big for tori to lift uke. Again the same discussion... there is no real lift, nor does the weight difference really need to matter. When I see people having that discussion and/or that the throw is not working because of an uke who is not doing his job correctly, I regularly step in. When I see that tori is in fact doing things right ( so being sure that the throw will work if everything goes correctly ), I tend to fiercly attack tori. Two things can then happen. Either tori scares out and avoids me by stepping away, or tori will throw me and is completely surprised by the lack of effort that was needed. That really prooves to them that it is indeed possible with about anyone ( for the record... I am not the lightest person, and I have quite a low cog ).

But when tori does not have the basics correct yet, then it is of course another story.
I tend to break the entire technique apart to show tori what to look for. This because there are so many simultanious actions, that it is hard to grasp for many. Imagine the right version, after ukes second step:
  • Step in with your left foot, to the outside of ukes right foot ( still a bit in front of it )
  • At the same time, place your left hand on his back, at belt-level
  • Then follow with your right foot, in ukes center, whilst leaving your right hand behind you, and also keep your hips back. Your ear should be somewhere at ukes chest
  • Next make your right hand arch from the back, then from below, into ukes belly so that your left and right hand are at about the same level, with uke in between. With the arch movement I mean that the direction of the hand comes from below and is already describing the direction of the push, which is upwards.
  • Having done that, immediately make your hips follow, where the right hip makes contact with your right lower arm, pushing it up.
  • From that motion, you will automatically arch your back. Then you fall on your left shoulder, arching as small as possible. Try to have your shoulders against your heels. Hopefully you will not really manage to do so, but do try to make yourself as small as possible.
  • When uke has forcefully attacked you, he will simply fly over.
This excercise is highly exaggerated, but it does explain step by step what to do. The main point here is the hip action. Pushing with your hip, makes all the action come from your body first, before your arm takes over. The hara, as many have already explained.





Hopefully this does make sense in writing...








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#10 User is offline   Tafftaz 

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:25 AM

Thanks guys. Very helpful info. I am forced to practise the kata without expert tuition and rely on the resources that are at hand to me. I normally get instructuion from the sensei at another club some miles away, but it is not very frequent,due to our clubs training at similar days and times.
After reading the replies I can almost see what my problem is. I have a good uke (my son),who's ukemi is excellent,but from reading the replies it looks like the attack is slightly wrong and I am obviously not pushing with my right hand enough.
Lots more practice needed methinks.

This post has been edited by Tafftaz: 26 March 2012 - 11:25 AM

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#11 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:31 AM

View PostJacob3, on 26 March 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

Try to have your shoulders against your heels. Hopefully you will not really manage to do so, but do try to make yourself as small as possible.

Hopefully this does make sense in writing...


No, this part does not make sense. Are we talking the same technique here ? :o
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
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#12 User is offline   Jacob3 

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 02:32 PM

View PostCichorei Kano, on 26 March 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

No, this part does not make sense. Are we talking the same technique here ? :o


I already expected that some statements would need more clarification :D.

I very often see people who are about to start the lift, drop themselves flat on their back. While doing so, they even stretch out, so that uke needs to 'travel' a long way, to even get past tori safely.
So I explain people to arch their back, and to try to stay as close to their feet as possible. That way ukes 'rotation axis' stays above tori for as long as possible, and you will achieve a short and swift rotation of uke, with his feet going upwards instead of his entire body going forward.

And like I said, one will never be able to do exactly that ( except perhaps for some circus 'snakepeople' ), but trying to might make the difference.
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#13 User is offline   Tafftaz 

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 02:54 PM

View PostJacob3, on 26 March 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

I already expected that some statements would need more clarification :D.

I very often see people who are about to start the lift, drop themselves flat on their back. While doing so, they even stretch out, so that uke needs to 'travel' a long way, to even get past tori safely.
So I explain people to arch their back, and to try to stay as close to their feet as possible. That way ukes 'rotation axis' stays above tori for as long as possible, and you will achieve a short and swift rotation of uke, with his feet going upwards instead of his entire body going forward.

And like I said, one will never be able to do exactly that ( except perhaps for some circus 'snakepeople' ), but trying to might make the difference.


I understand what you mean Jacob and thanks for your input.
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#14 User is offline   Francois 

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 03:11 PM

View PostJacob3, on 26 March 2012 - 04:20 AM, said:

  • Having done that, immediately make your hips follow, where the right hip makes contact with your right lower arm, pushing it up.


Your right lower arm does not make contact with your hip through out the throw. To maintain proper trajectory and distance between tori and uke, tori's arm cannot collapse that far.



"The arts of peace and the arts of war are like two wheels of a cart which, lacking one, will have difficulty in standing."�Kuroda Nagamasa (1568-1623)

"In battle, if you you make your opponent flinch, you have already won." --- Miyamoto Musashi (1584-1645)
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#15 User is offline   Jacob3 

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 03:20 PM

View Postptnippon, on 26 March 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

Your right lower arm does not make contact with your hip through out the throw. To maintain proper trajectory and distance between tori and uke, tori's arm cannot collapse that far.





I did not say 'throughout'. I ment more like 'catapulting' the arm movement. As in only an initial push cq transferral of energie at the moment of entry.
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#16 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 03:59 PM

View PostJacob3, on 27 March 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

I already expected that some statements would need more clarification :D.

I very often see people who are about to start the lift, drop themselves flat on their back. While doing so, they even stretch out, so that uke needs to 'travel' a long way, to even get past tori safely.
So I explain people to arch their back, and to try to stay as close to their feet as possible. That way ukes 'rotation axis' stays above tori for as long as possible, and you will achieve a short and swift rotation of uke, with his feet going upwards instead of his entire body going forward.

And like I said, one will never be able to do exactly that ( except perhaps for some circus 'snakepeople' ), but trying to might make the difference.


I don't think it is a matter of 'clarification'. Proper ura-nage 'is' done with tori "stretching himself out", as you put it. Tori does not intentionally arch backwards at all. The arching back is 'sometimes' produced "as a consequence", but not as a purpose. Proper ura-nage is done with tori falling backwards in bridge, weight on the heels, back straight; that is the intention; because of all sorts or reasons sometimes the arched back is produced, but it is never an aim. Tori does not make himself as small as possible and does not at all stay close to his feet, but makes himself as large as possible and moves away as much as possible from his feet. Thus it is the opposite of what you allege it is. Axis of rotation is in the frontal plane and moves itself upwards as a result of pushing with the hara (as PTNippon-sensei previously mentioned) and the pushing action of the right hand.

Biomechanically, ura-nage is a physical-lever-type of throw, with the fulcrum below uke's hips, produced with minimal lever. However, pedagogically, there are a number of things that play, that go beyond merely applying the lever. The throw originally was imported from Takenouchi-Santô-ryû jûjutsu, so it has a very long history with its principles finding origin in how it was originally applied.

This post has been edited by Cichorei Kano: 26 March 2012 - 04:20 PM

"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
"I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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