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bjj's application of throws in self defence Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Jdt 

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 12:42 AM

I've done both judo and bjj. Obviously judo players have better throws. But in terms of self defence applications, bjj has more realistic scenarios to practice throws. For example squaring off with hands up before clinching, avoiding sucker punches etc. Ironically I'm not sure if most bjj practitioners could pull off these throws under stress due to lack of tachiwaza.
Please I'm not trying to start a war. Just want to hear opinions.
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#2 User is offline   Tafftaz 

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 01:32 AM

View PostJdt, on 23 February 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

I've done both judo and bjj. Obviously judo players have better throws. But in terms of self defence applications, bjj has more realistic scenarios to practice throws. For example squaring off with hands up before clinching, avoiding sucker punches etc. Ironically I'm not sure if most bjj practitioners could pull off these throws under stress due to lack of tachiwaza.
Please I'm not trying to start a war. Just want to hear opinions.


Have you never fought for grips in Judo? What level of judo did you practise? Your hands should be up in front of you, exactly the same as you state they do in bjj. If you have ever fought an e;lite judoka, grip fighting can sometimes be quite brutal. Punches to the face are quite common.

I know you do not mean it, but this is also the sort of post that will start a judo/bjj slugfest all over again
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#3 User is offline   RagingDemon 

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 02:32 AM

Keep in mind that that bjj DOES NOT limit their takedowns/throws as oppose to judo. Also, it depends on who you train under. If he's a black belt in judo or an accomplished wrestler.
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#4 User is offline   Jdt 

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 05:22 AM

View PostRagingDemon, on 22 February 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

Keep in mind that that bjj DOES NOT limit their takedowns/throws as oppose to judo. Also, it depends on who you train under. If he's a black belt in judo or an accomplished wrestler.

Yes you are right. I was just comparing the application of throw between pure bjj and judo from a kata or self defence perspective.
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#5 User is offline   SODO 

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 08:17 AM

View PostRagingDemon, on 23 February 2012 - 02:32 AM, said:

Keep in mind that that bjj DOES NOT limit their takedowns/throws as oppose to judo. Also, it depends on who you train under. If he's a black belt in judo or an accomplished wrestler.

Hi Raging,

1/ Judo does not limit throws, the IJF does.
2/ competetion rules have NOTHING to do with SD.
3/ you want to learn judo train under a JUDO instructor, qwant to learn wrestling train with a wrestling instructor.
4/ niether has anything to do with fighting in the street, except both will give you an advantage over an untrained opponent.

atb

sodo
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#6 User is offline   aiyotsu 

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 08:53 AM

View PostSODO, on 23 February 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

Hi Raging,

1/ Judo does not limit throws, the IJF does.
2/ competetion rules have NOTHING to do with SD.
3/ you want to learn judo train under a JUDO instructor, qwant to learn wrestling train with a wrestling instructor.
4/ niether has anything to do with fighting in the street, except both will give you an advantage over an untrained opponent.

atb

sodo

Hi sodo
I am in full agreement
kind regards aiyotsu
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#7 User is offline   RagingDemon 

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 08:57 AM

View PostSODO, on 23 February 2012 - 12:17 AM, said:

Hi Raging,

1/ Judo does not limit throws, the IJF does.
2/ competetion rules have NOTHING to do with SD.
3/ you want to learn judo train under a JUDO instructor, qwant to learn wrestling train with a wrestling instructor.
4/ niether has anything to do with fighting in the street, except both will give you an advantage over an untrained opponent.

atb

sodo

Responding to 1 and 2. YES it does. And you have to assume your opponent is better trained than you.

This post has been edited by RagingDemon: 23 February 2012 - 09:10 AM

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#8 User is offline   RagingDemon 

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 09:09 AM

This a street fight not self defense but still interesting to see.

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#9 User is offline   SODO 

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 09:22 AM

View PostRagingDemon, on 23 February 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

Responding to 1 and 2. YES it does. And you have to assume your opponent is better trained than you.

Hi Raging,

I am confused,you clain that the following statements are false :blink:

Quote

1/ Judo does not limit throws, the IJF does.


Where does judo limit throws? The IJF limit some techniques in competition judo and some instructors limit some techniques in some classes. e.g. I do not let kids do stranglöes and armlocks and I do not let dan gradres throw kyu grades with hard cmpetition throws like maki komi but these are just limitation in the club or comnpetition, they are not limitations on judo

Quote

2/ competetion rules have NOTHING to do with SD.


What pay do competition rules have to do with SD, theay are as relevant as the off side rule in soccer. IN SD ther are "NO RULES" except survive however you can.

You have been spouting rubish about banned techniques (leg gabs) is judo every chance you get, you seem incapable of actually reading the rules, these techniques are not banned in judo they are RESTRICTED in IJF comnpetition. If yxou do not know what resticted means please look it up in the dictionary.

atb

sodo

PS: I did not look at the vid because I do not find street fighting interesting, I find it childish and gave it up after I left school.

This post has been edited by SODO: 23 February 2012 - 09:23 AM

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#10 User is offline   PointyShinyBurning 

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 10:26 AM

While the platonic ideal of Judo (and BJJ) may be unaffected by changes in its competition rules, the way most people actually practice and the things they're good at certainly will, and do, change.

How many Judoka leg-lock experts do you know? And I don't mean "I did it in a kata once", I mean guys who know them like Neil Adams knows juji gatame.
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#11 User is offline   Davaro 

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 11:03 AM

View PostPointyShinyBurning, on 23 February 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

While the platonic ideal of Judo (and BJJ) may be unaffected by changes in its competition rules, the way most people actually practice and the things they're good at certainly will, and do, change.

How many Judoka leg-lock experts do you know? And I don't mean "I did it in a kata once", I mean guys who know them like Neil Adams knows juji gatame.


What do leglocks have to do with the application of throws as asked by the OP?

What SODO is saying is that the obvious "leg grab" issue you are referring to has nothing to do with SD as an aspect of Judo. IJF competition rules have nothing to do with SD application.

One of the first rules in SD is to NOT go to the ground (where you have to do a leglock anyway) but rather get your attacker to go to ground (preferably in a shape unfit to continue) not so?

This post has been edited by Davaro: 23 February 2012 - 11:22 AM

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#12 User is offline   PointyShinyBurning 

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 11:14 AM

View PostDavaro, on 23 February 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

What do leglocks have to do with the application of throws as asked by the OP?

They are an example of competition rules that have eroded functional skills.

View PostDavaro, on 23 February 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

What SODO is saying is that the obvious "leg grab" issue you are referring to has nothing to do with SD as an aspect of Judo. IJF competition rules have nothing to do with SD application.
Except that Judoka will be worse at defending, in all circumstances, those techniques the less they are exposed to them, and the fact is that most actual dojos will limit the majority of their randori to an approximation of competition rules.

View PostDavaro, on 23 February 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

One of the first rules in SD is to NOT go to the ground (where you have to do a leglock anyway) but rather get your attacker to go to ground (preferably in a shape unfot to continue) not so?
The first rule of 'SD' is not to get into fights. If you do that perfectly every time you don't need to learn any throws either.

P.S. To answer the actual OP, more 'realistic' practise of throws without resistance doesn't buy you anything, in my humble opinion. I'd count on a good wrestler or Judoka to take someone down over a BJJ guy with a bunch of compliant 'self defence' drilling.

This post has been edited by PointyShinyBurning: 23 February 2012 - 11:17 AM

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#13 User is offline   SODO 

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 11:20 AM

HI Pointy,

Quote

While the platonic ideal of Judo (and BJJ) may be unaffected by changes in its competition rules, the way most people actually practice and the things they're good at certainly will, and do, change.


I am not talking about platonoc ideals I am talking about everyday practice and randori which makes up abpüut 95% of practice for the normal judoka.
Changes to competition rules are pretty much irrelevant unless you are training for a contest. Just look at ne waza randori, if you believe half the people here on the forum it entails belly flopping to the ground and defending on all fours till the ref call matte <_<, In reality I have never seen ne waza done like this just as in tachi waza most clubs allow all types of techniques that are suitable for the level of students, also when teaching the traditional form of kata guruma is taught and not some hybrid that complies to IJF rules. Anyway this all has nothing to do with SD.


Quote

How many Judoka leg-lock experts do you know? And I don't mean "I did it in a kata once", I mean guys who know them like Neil Adams knows juji gatame.


Leg locks were removed from judo long before the IJF existed <_< and have not been part of judo for nearly a hundred years, their removal was for safety reasons and since it was Kano himself that removed them and he defined what judo was (or should be) then I think it is safe to say that leg locks are not part of modern Randori no kata.

If somebody really feels the need to learn leg locks, punching or kicking the they should take up a sport that practices them regularly, judo is just not that sport.

atb

sodo
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#14 User is offline   PointyShinyBurning 

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 11:31 AM

View PostSODO, on 23 February 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

Changes to competition rules are pretty much irrelevant unless you are training for a contest. Just look at ne waza randori, if you believe half the people here on the forum it entails belly flopping to the ground and defending on all fours till the ref call matte <_<, In reality I have never seen ne waza done like this
I have trained at a Judo club (though, for fairly obvious reasons, I didn't go back there much) where newaza is mainly practised in 20-seconds-or-bust drills, with assigned attackers and defenders. Even though not many people do that, are you really saying that the de-emphasis in competition of ground skills has had no effect on the average skill level? Because when I've trained Judo I've definitely noticed that older black belts are, on average better than younger ones on the floor and I think that's because of the changes to competition rules.

View PostSODO, on 23 February 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

just as in tachi waza most clubs allow all types of techniques that are suitable for the level of students, also when teaching the traditional form of kata guruma is taught and not some hybrid that complies to IJF rules.
When teaching statically or for nage no kata, yes, but by and large people conform to a rough version of comp rules because they don't want to develop bad reflexes for competition, right?

View PostSODO, on 23 February 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

Anyway this all has nothing to do with SD.
It does (in as much as 'self defence' is really a thing) because randori is the primary training method for both fighting and Judo competition. Unless you think that the chaotic situation of a Judo competition needs randori, but the chaotic situation of a fight is somehow dependant on static training.

View PostSODO, on 23 February 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

Leg locks were removed from judo long before the IJF existed <_< and have not been part of judo for nearly a hundred years, their removal was for safety reasons and since it was Kano himself that removed them and he defined what judo was (or should be) then I think it is safe to say that leg locks are not part of modern Randori no kata.
And the end result is, as you say below, no one in modern Judo really knows them. The same is true of kani basami and, if Judo proceeds down its current road with regard to rules, then leg takedowns will be in that same category.

You can say "that doesn't matter, Judo is just a sport" and that's a coherent opinion, but you can't in the same breath deny that it has any impact on Judo's utility for fighting.

This post has been edited by PointyShinyBurning: 23 February 2012 - 11:33 AM

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#15 User is offline   SODO 

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 12:31 PM

Hi Pointy,

Quote

I have trained at a Judo club (though, for fairly obvious reasons, I didn't go back there much) where newaza is mainly practised in 20-seconds-or-bust drills, with assigned attackers and defenders. Even though not many people do that, are you really saying that the de-emphasis in competition of ground skills has had no effect on the average skill level?


It depends very much on the club and the instructor, (also BJA clubs are more IJF orientated than AJA or BJC), we all use differnt drills for diffeerent purposes, repeated 20 second drills is basically useless as a form of teaching or technique training, it is more for condition (physical ad mental), it has it's place but as with all things moderation and variation are required to get balanced results.


Quote

Because when I've trained Judo I've definitely noticed that older black belts are, on average better than younger ones on the floor and I think that's because of the changes to competition rules.


Again it depends on the type of club, if the coaches are medal hunters and just train for competition success then the students will not get the basics and as they develop they will be lacking. In higher level competition you need to conserve strength for the next bout, you also burn more energy on the ground so tactically you only go to the ground when you have a clear advantage. this is competition stratergy and has nothing to do with judo as an "art", it is if you like gamesmanship. This gamesmanship should not have anything to do with teaching judo untill a student has developt his skill enough and is regularly taking part in competitions, I would not teach kids or novices to think stratergy, they should be encouraged to just go out and fight, try and use what tecjhniquwes they have learnt and above all have fun.

Another problen is the number of judoka that are available, in the seventies and eighties it was not seldom that 50 people were on the mat at one time, god at some training sessions you had over 50 dan grades on the mat, the night I got my shodan they made five pools of applicants (about 30 ikkyu), this does not happen very often nowadays.
Another problem is the mentality of the students and competition for their time, the usual class was 2 1/2 hours back then, which was adequate time to learn something new, practice and get in some good randori. At my present club we increased the training time from 1hour to 90 minutes last year and a few guys were complaining.

I know a few young dan grades that are sh\t scared to do ground work with me and avoid ne waza whenever they can but they are a minority. :big grin:


Quote

When teaching statically or for nage no kata, yes, but by and large people conform to a rough version of comp rules because they don't want to develop bad reflexes for competition, right?


In some clubs yes, but that is a very shortsighted view. I think there are far more clubs out there that teach judo first, then teach competition statergy. I am often invited to other clubs especially in the lead up to the competition season to give some training sessions on competition techniques and tactics. These sessions are for Blue belt and above. the lower kyu grades do not get this type of training.


Quote

It does (in as much as 'self defence' is really a thing) because randori is the primary training method for both fighting and Judo competition. Unless you think that the chaotic situation of a Judo competition needs randori, but the chaotic situation of a fight is somehow dependant on static training.


I have been doing judo since 1964, I have traveled all over Europe and have visited at least a 1000 clubs and every single one taught judo as a sport, none even claimed that judo was a fighting art or a self defence system (some also ran SD course seperately), I know some people like to think of it as such but they are a vast minority. Judo is a combat sport which will give a judoka an advantage over an untrained opponent in a SD situation, nothing more and nothing less.


Quote

And the end result is, as you say below, no one in modern Judo really knows them. The same is true of kani basami and, if Judo proceeds down its current road with regard to rules, then leg takedowns will be in that same category.


Leg locks wer not removed from competition, Kano removed them from randori no kata, in effect removed them from judo. it had nothing to do with competition it had to do with safety in randori. Kanoi basami was removed from competition but is very miuch alive in randori in many clubs, just not at low kyu grade level. The leg grab rule is different in that was brought in to combat a play safe stratergy in judo competition. It was probably not the best move but there have been far worse, e.g the introduction of minor and penalty scores. these do affect competition but have little to no impact in the club, or do ypou all train to get shido :big grin:

Quote

You can say "that doesn't matter, Judo is just a sport" and that's a coherent opinion, but you can't in the same breath deny that it has any impact on Judo's utility for fighting.


Modern judo was never meant to be a form of fighting for SD, you could say the same of soccer (was originally used to train teamwork among warriors), Rugby etc... It only has an impact on judo usefullness in a fight if that is what your purpose is, and tbh If you just want to hone your street fighting skills then there are many more suitable systems.
As someone has already pointed out as soon as you introduce rules (any rules) you affect a systems application in a real fight and in a real fight it does not come down to which fighter knows the best tricks, it's down to which fighter is prepared to do the most damage.


atb

sodo

This post has been edited by SODO: 23 February 2012 - 12:40 PM

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