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Ura Nage in competition? Do they have to land first? Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Spaceghost 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 06:28 PM

Hi,

I sometimes like to attempt a ura nage as a counter for various front throws but I was wondering in terms of competition what the rules are if you land on your back first? I have never been in a competition but in randori if I do it, I tend to do it softly and try and land on my back first to absorb some of the impact because I don't want to hurt my partner and it seems like a high impact/risky throw to me (I have never been thrown by it so I don't know). Is it wrong for me to do this? I can't really tell what my partner is doing but I assume they land on their shoulders at the same time or very close.
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#2 User is offline   danguy 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 07:28 PM

View PostSpaceghost, on 22 February 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

Hi,

I sometimes like to attempt a ura nage as a counter for various front throws but I was wondering in terms of competition what the rules are if you land on your back first? I have never been in a competition but in randori if I do it, I tend to do it softly and try and land on my back first to absorb some of the impact because I don't want to hurt my partner and it seems like a high impact/risky throw to me (I have never been thrown by it so I don't know). Is it wrong for me to do this? I can't really tell what my partner is doing but I assume they land on their shoulders at the same time or very close.

First ippon counts and if you have not taken clear control and landed on your back to absorb some shock of a throw, your "counter uranage" is second.

This post has been edited by danguy: 23 February 2012 - 12:07 AM

If I am doing "win," sloppy and sissy is fine; if I am doing Judo, beautiful is my rule and goal. Judo is far more important and rewarding than "win."

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#4 User is offline   SODO 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 07:28 PM

View PostSpaceghost, on 22 February 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

Hi,

I sometimes like to attempt a ura nage as a counter for various front throws but I was wondering in terms of competition what the rules are if you land on your back first? I have never been in a competition but in randori if I do it, I tend to do it softly and try and land on my back first to absorb some of the impact because I don't want to hurt my partner and it seems like a high impact/risky throw to me (I have never been thrown by it so I don't know). Is it wrong for me to do this? I can't really tell what my partner is doing but I assume they land on their shoulders at the same time or very close.


Hi Spaceghost,

it is a good counter throw in competition but not usually seen very often at lower level tournements.only a very bad ref would give an ippon the wrong way but it does happen. Most experienced competitors tend to land on their side anyway so it is not usually a problem, the problem maybe trying to do it softly, it ain't a soft throw, if you do not commit fully you probably will not pull it off and that is the main reason that you do not see it done very often a kyu grade or local level.

sorry in a rush.
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#5 User is offline   Bboystyleus 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 10:22 PM

I have been the victim of one and it did not hurt very much. The shodan who did it to me was very experienced and threw me with great force, I suspect had he thrown me softer it would have hurt but the force that he threw me in was parallel to the mat and not perpendicular or in other words he did not spike me to the mat.
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#6 User is offline   genetic judoka 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 10:27 PM

View PostBboystyleus, on 22 February 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

I have been the victim of one and it did not hurt very much. The shodan who did it to me was very experienced and threw me with great force, I suspect had he thrown me softer it would have hurt but the force that he threw me in was parallel to the mat and not perpendicular or in other words he did not spike me to the mat.

then you sir have not experienced a real ura nage!
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#7 User is offline   JoshuaResnick 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 10:28 PM

In Judo the thing about Uranage, like any technique, is the question of control....

It does not make any difference who begins a given scenario, it matters who finishes it. In other words, if I throw with Urangae but my opponent twists in the air and lands on top of and across my body then it is certainly not going to be my score, but his as he took away my control. Judo makes the assumption that somebody is in control 99% of the time. That is why you see very few calls where an official waves off a scramble or moment when somebody hits their back.

Even if I miss a simple deashibarai and hit my own back, the official will score it for my opponent more times than not. THe assumption being that if my opponent had not forced me to miss-- had not reacted with control and balance then the footsweep would have connected if not been effected.

So, does it matter if you hit your own back... not exactly, but hitting your own back when the throw is not intended to have that happen does mean something. it means your control may not have been as solid as it should/could have been. now, that depnds on the nature of the throw and how much your opponent struggles to take control of his own landing position compared to yours.

you will see this same sceanrio scored very differently in freestyle and greco wreslting. they will award the points for a high amplitude throw, but also give back points to your opponent. better hope you don't flash-pin yourself. lol
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#8 User is offline   Tafftaz 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 11:55 PM

View Postgenetic judoka, on 22 February 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

then you sir have not experienced a real ura nage!


I am afraid to say that he has and that you are wrong. Look at the NNK. Nowhere in the ura nage waza in the NNK is uke spiked into the mat. Does this make it not a correct ura nage? I do not think so. Look at ptNippon sensei avatar. He is performing ura nage and he does not spike his uke into the mat. As Josh says in his post, it is all about control. I have been thrown numerous times by hard ura nage from very experienced judoka, and have always got back up and carried on,randori or shiai. If I had been spiked head first then there is no way I would be doing judo today.
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#9 User is offline   genetic judoka 

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 02:09 AM

View PostTafftaz, on 22 February 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

I am afraid to say that he has and that you are wrong. Look at the NNK. Nowhere in the ura nage waza in the NNK is uke spiked into the mat. Does this make it not a correct ura nage? I do not think so. Look at ptNippon sensei avatar. He is performing ura nage and he does not spike his uke into the mat. As Josh says in his post, it is all about control. I have been thrown numerous times by hard ura nage from very experienced judoka, and have always got back up and carried on,randori or shiai. If I had been spiked head first then there is no way I would be doing judo today.

it was a joke. I forget from time to time that tone is hard to convey over the internet.
"Let the refining and improving of your own life keep you so busy that you have little time to criticize others." -H. Jackson Brown Jr.

"Wise men don't need to prove their point. Men who need to prove their point aren't wise" -Lao Tzu

"When torrential waters move a massive boulder, it is because of momentum.
When a hawk’s strike breaks the body of its prey, it is because of timing." -Sun Tzu

"The Way of strategy is the Way of nature. When you appreciate the power of nature, knowing the rhythm of any situation,
you will be able to hit the enemy naturally and strike naturally. All this is the Way of the Void." -Miyamoto Musashi
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#10 User is offline   danguy 

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 02:11 AM

View Postgenetic judoka, on 22 February 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

it was a joke. I forget from time to time that tone is hard to convey over the internet.

That is what these are for: -_-
If I am doing "win," sloppy and sissy is fine; if I am doing Judo, beautiful is my rule and goal. Judo is far more important and rewarding than "win."

"What you are as a person is far more important than what you are as a basketball [Judo] player." --John Wooden 1910-2010

"You should first try to negotiate nicely but you can be strong after there's resistance, and know, just like in judo, when to catch them." --Rusty Kanokogi, 2008, on negotiating.
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#11 User is offline   JoshuaResnick 

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 05:22 PM

When I throw Uranage I can tell before uke hits the mat how hard of a fall it is going to be.. And, to be honest, it isn't my problem. If we are in a place and situation where throwing Uranage is acceptable then I make sure to do justice to the throw just the same as any other. I'm not throwing Uranage against a non-competitor who is unable to take the throw-- though I will not hesitate to throw my own 4 year old with it if he gives me the opportunity (better he learn the lesson now)!

The times when people were truly knocked silly from the throw came when the speed was extreme, not the elevation. In other words, lifting somebody up high above your shoulders does not correlate to a hard landing. If anything, it gives uke the opportunity to prepare himself, challenge your control and possibly steal the throw. The faster the throw, the more effective and more devastating the impact. My personal favorite is a "snatch" version where the Uranage depends more a baiting of uke to attack. The timing almost feels like an ashiwaza-- only with the hips and back.

For my money, you have not felt a great Uranage until it hit you so fast you couldn't even feel the lift-- all you know is that you tried to throw and now your lungs can't get air and your vision is blurry.
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#12 User is offline   Tafftaz 

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 12:27 AM

View Postgenetic judoka, on 23 February 2012 - 02:09 AM, said:

it was a joke. I forget from time to time that tone is hard to convey over the internet.


My apologies. Sorry fpr late reply but internet been down for a week.
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#13 User is offline   Joe_Cool 

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 07:42 PM

I threw an ura nage in a local tournament as a counter to an uchi mata. I lifted the guy off the mat and threw him, but because he managed to twist up onto his side and I landed with my back exposed to the mat, the ref called it as an ippon FOR HIM. I was less than happy. :manono:
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#14 User is offline   JoshuaResnick 

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 07:46 PM

View PostJoe_Cool, on 02 March 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

I threw an ura nage in a local tournament as a counter to an uchi mata. I lifted the guy off the mat and threw him, but because he managed to twist up onto his side and I landed with my back exposed to the mat, the ref called it as an ippon FOR HIM. I was less than happy. :manono:


Then you did not throw Uranage.. Your attempted to, made the throw too big for you to control, lost control and had uke take control of your original throw. Trust me, you did not throw with Uranage... You wanted to, but didn't. =)
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#15 User is offline   loudenvier 

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 09:32 PM

Any throw must be executed with control. Without control it should NEVER be scored. Unfortunately, today, referees lack this high level of distinction, and are scoring everything.

For example, if you miss a de ashi barai and fall onto your back, by yourself, and all uke did was to lift the attacked foot, avoiding the de ashi barai, it SHOULD NEVER BE SCORED. Yamashita himself did that in a high profile competition in Japan, and the referee didn't score anything because uke didn't do anything, just avoided the attacking leg... In other words: there was no control, there was no throw, Yamashita fell by himself, so it is a non-score.

Of course, a simple twist of uke's hand in the scenario above may give the referee sufficient reason to believe there was, indeed, control to warrant a score.

In the ura-nage scenario, if uke is lifted in the air, but then twist while in the air, I don't think the should get a score because he didn't throw, he just avoided being thrown. But, since ura-nage is normally a counter, uke in fact started the action, was countered but was able to twist and fall on top of "tori", so it is a hard call... When he was lifted, should we consider he had no more control of his initial attack and then it was actually only defending being thrown?
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#16 User is offline   billc 

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 10:34 PM

Ditto comments of Josh and Loud. One of our better ikkyu found this out a few weeks back ... I forget if it was the West Covina or the San Fernando tournament. I was not there, wonder if anyone saw this.

He came back to the dojo confused about his loss in the last round he played ... said he "threw" uranage as a counter ... thought he had been DQ'd for breaking the guy's arm. When I saw the video the problem unfolded ... there was the referee's arm, straight up on the air for ippon. Opponent had twisted in the air as mentioned, our young lad had fallen on his back, the unlucky winner gave up his arm in a successful attempt to flatten out face down on top.

Our in-house A level ref, however, noted that there was no control on either side and probably it should have been a kiken gachi in our lad's favor ... that riding it down and certainly breaking the arm in doing so is not the same as control. But that does not explain why this call is so common.

Uranage-but-not-uranage is a bad habit and hard to break, something about falling backwards just seems right ... when it is probably really wrong. My own suggestion would be to avoid uranage as a counter unless one is really good at it ... unless one is really heaving one's opponent ... not just grabbing and falling backwards.

Ushirogoshi, or properly done taniotoshi used to be more common. Maybe it's time for a comeback?

This post has been edited by billc: 12 March 2012 - 10:41 PM

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