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Neck Cranks and cross face...the forgotten holds Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Vitor 

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 03:59 AM

I was having a discussion with one of my old Shootwrestling buddy's (sayama style) about the subject of Neck cranks/cross faces and why no one uses them anymore. I know in most grappling events Spinal locks are banned but also outside of catch i have not seen any grappling systems touch on the subject, me and him went back and forth on the pros and cons of neck cranks in his argument he brought up Joe Rogan's comment about how it's becoming harder to RNC people in MMA, my Buddy point of view was "the problem with this is people don't think outside the bjj box if you can't get his neck cross-face him or apply the squeeze on his chin worst case you dislocate his jaw or with the cross-face you pop a disk"

My argument or point was old timer catch-wrestler Charles Olson who Killed two men under catch-as-catch-can rules with Neck-cranks and how some people are too mule headed to get the point that this is no small Joint pop you could be paralyzed or die from it.In Ending his words rang true " you think someone like Frank Mir gives a sh*t about hurting you? if i can't submit you then I WILL BREAK YOU"
that being said what's you guys thoughts on Neck cranks and is neglecting them in your teaching your syllabus good or bad?


BTW here is a video of Shinya Aoki in strikeforce with Lyle Beerbohm, Aoki misses the RNC and goes for the cross-face neck crank and gets the tap..so it does hold weight..but what happens if he does not tap?

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=PVStVcF0UDo

This post has been edited by Vitor: 17 February 2012 - 04:07 AM

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#2 User is offline   PointyShinyBurning 

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 08:45 AM

I don't think you should use a submission you're not willing to finish, so I would leave out the neck-cranks even where they're legal. That said, RNC on the chin is fine in BJJ. Cross-facing them a bit so you can then choke them is fine in my book as well, seems like the only reason to use the Aoki-style pure spine lock is if you're set on being a dick.

Mind you, I suppose that's speaking from a fairly enculturated BJJ viewpoint, I did a seminar with Roy Wood where he showed a bunch of neck-crank finishes then explained how catch doesn't include strangles because they're "ungentlemanly".

This post has been edited by PointyShinyBurning: 17 February 2012 - 11:20 AM

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#3 User is offline   Slindsay 

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 11:07 AM

View PostVitor, on 17 February 2012 - 03:59 AM, said:

I was having a discussion with one of my old Shootwrestling buddy's (sayama style) about the subject of Neck cranks/cross faces and why no one uses them anymore. I know in most grappling events Spinal locks are banned but also outside of catch i have not seen any grappling systems touch on the subject, me and him went back and forth on the pros and cons of neck cranks in his argument he brought up Joe Rogan's comment about how it's becoming harder to RNC people in MMA, my Buddy point of view was "the problem with this is people don't think outside the bjj box if you can't get his neck cross-face him or apply the squeeze on his chin worst case you dislocate his jaw or with the cross-face you pop a disk"

My argument or point was old timer catch-wrestler Charles Olson who Killed two men under catch-as-catch-can rules with Neck-cranks and how some people are too mule headed to get the point that this is no small Joint pop you could be paralyzed or die from it.In Ending his words rang true " you think someone like Frank Mir gives a sh*t about hurting you? if i can't submit you then I WILL BREAK YOU"
that being said what's you guys thoughts on Neck cranks and is neglecting them in your teaching your syllabus good or bad?


BTW here is a video of Shinya Aoki in strikeforce with Lyle Beerbohm, Aoki misses the RNC and goes for the cross-face neck crank and gets the tap..so it does hold weight..but what happens if he does not tap?

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=PVStVcF0UDo


I think we all know what's going to happen if Beerbohm doesn't tap here.
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#4 User is offline   Dutch 

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 03:28 PM

Trust me you want to tap to that submission. Its painful and takes away your breath. Neck cranks I have a couple of nice variations of those that I use to some extend (when legal). The most common you see in competition is the can-opener. It is easily defended though.
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#5 User is offline   Vitor 

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 03:40 PM

over this weekend one UFC fight stuck in my mind, the T.J Dillashaw vs Walel Watson, T.j had Walel's back and was hunting over and over for Wale's neck and could not get it even had him flaten out on his belly and still could not get the RNC I think if he would have cross-faced him or applyed the "Aoki neck-crank" he would have ended the fight.
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#6 User is offline   Dutch 

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 03:56 PM

View PostVitor, on 17 February 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

over this weekend one UFC fight stuck in my mind, the T.J Dillashaw vs Walel Watson, T.j had Walel's back and was hunting over and over for Wale's neck and could not get it even had him flaten out on his belly and still could not get the RNC I think if he would have cross-faced him or applyed the "Aoki neck-crank" he would have ended the fight.


yeah or at least created the oppurtunity to choke.
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#7 User is offline   Glorfindel 

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 07:07 PM

At our gym, we still show some neck crank, but only to advanced and pro mma guy.

We also play a lot with 'pain compliance' set-up. Some people think that we try to get the tap with it, it's not true. We use body's reaction to pain to set-up things here and there ;-)

Yes they are underused 'cause most gym are doing bjj, not cacc.
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#8 User is offline   Glorfindel 

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 07:10 PM

View PostDutch, on 17 February 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

Trust me you want to tap to that submission. Its painful and takes away your breath. Neck cranks I have a couple of nice variations of those that I use to some extend (when legal). The most common you see in competition is the can-opener. It is easily defended though.



Hello,

Can you tell me how you easily defend the can-opener ??

Can-opener are like other sub, there is good way to do it and bad ways. Most people are doing it the wrong way.
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#9 User is offline   Judo Jeep 

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 07:16 PM

I know that, at least with Judo, the intention is NOT to hurt or injure your opponent. On the street we're talking about something different, but on the mat, it is mutual benefit and mutual welfare. The bone crushing stuff was taken OUT of JJ moves when Judo was developed for a reason.

There are still crossface type moves of course, but judo is designed to work best with minimum effort so there is not really a lot of direct crushing of anything. Is it the intent to submit your opponent or to injure them?
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#10 User is offline   Glorfindel 

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 07:17 PM

View PostPointyShinyBurning, on 17 February 2012 - 03:45 AM, said:


seems like the only reason to use the Aoki-style pure spine lock is if you're set on being a dick.




Or you use it on someone who said that he is 'un-chokable' ;-) The rnc is a very 'nice' hold. There is a lot of holds not so nice when you have someone back ;-)
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#11 User is offline   WBWAndering 

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 11:46 PM

View PostGlorfindel, on 17 February 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

Hello,

Can you tell me how you easily defend the can-opener ??

Can-opener are like other sub, there is good way to do it and bad ways. Most people are doing it the wrong way.

The can opener is basically just a clinch. All the methods of breaking out of the clinch apply as well as an armbar counter. :manoyes:
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#12 User is offline   CHH 

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 02:34 AM

The rule set dictate the techniques. Sub grapplers don't use them because they're rarely legal in competition. MMA fighters don't use them because punches stop fights quicker and easier, and anytime you put your hands in front of your opponent's face while on his back they're probably going to grab your gloves and stop anything you intend to do.

So...no one does neck cranks. They're legit though.
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#13 User is offline   Hedgehogey 

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 10:07 AM

View PostGlorfindel, on 17 February 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

Hello,

Can you tell me how you easily defend the can-opener ??

Can-opener are like other sub, there is good way to do it and bad ways. Most people are doing it the wrong way.


Please tell me you're not teaching this from inside the guard.
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#14 User is offline   Hedgehogey 

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 10:13 AM

Quote

my Buddy point of view was "the problem with this is people don't think outside the bjj box if you can't get his neck cross-face him


Cross facing is absolutely "inside the BJJ box". It's just done carefully in training because crossfacing can suck and rolling is about learning, not showing how long your pubes are.

For instance: I was crossfaced pretty damn hard two weeks ago, which scraped my lips and cheek across my teeth. Because of those cuts it was painful to eat for about five days. So you need to apply a crossface with control, preferably along the cheekbone, bridge of the nose or forehead.

Crossfacing is not the same thing as neck cranking or crushing the jaw.

Quote

or apply the squeeze on his chin worst case you dislocate his jaw or with the cross-face you pop a disk"


Bad, strength based technique. In other words, catch wrestling. It takes far more force to apply a Matt Furey jawcrusher than to apply a good RNC. Besides, it's very easy to get into a situation where you're shoving your forearm into his mouth.

This post has been edited by Hedgehogey: 19 February 2012 - 10:14 AM

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#15 User is offline   Glorfindel 

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 02:51 PM

View PostHedgehogey, on 19 February 2012 - 05:13 AM, said:

Bad, strength based technique. In other words, catch wrestling.



Nice comment!!

You're showing your ignorance about cacc my friend.

There is good and bad technique, even for the neck crank buddy!

This post has been edited by Glorfindel: 19 February 2012 - 02:57 PM

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