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Miesha Tate on Ronda Rousey: Nine times out of 10, wrestling trumps ju Rate Topic: -----

#46 User is offline   Vitor 

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 03:40 PM

..." And, why did you disregard my post where I asked how many judoka compete in MMA compared to wrestlers in USA? You know there are far more wrestlers competing in the US MMA scene than judokas. It's only logical that there would be more champions from wrestling."

ok...fine let's put a spin on it.. since it's a "numbers game" M-1 is the premiere Russian MMA Org. it's a safe bet as to say most of the Russians who fight in that event hold a degree in Masters in sport Sambo/judo (just like in the U.S.A the number of wrestlers are higher just like in Russia the number of Judoka/sambo players are higher) Vinny Maglhaes is the M-1 lightheavyweight champ those crazy Russians threw the kitchen sink at him with Russian's with backgrounds in Sambo/judo and Vinny beat everyone they threw at him.

Now since it's a numbers game why is Vinny Successful? what makes him any different from say a Judoka in the UFC? he is fighting in a event or venue where the numbers are Judo/sambo players the deck is stacked in favor of them explain?

Excuses..excuses blah blah blah.. :rolleyes:

oh and before someone goes off on Vinny being a worldclass BJJ BB Vinny in his own words said winning a world combat sombo championship is on the same level as winning the Mundials. so again what's his success any different than a judo player winning say..a UFC title? or a world MMA title?

This post has been edited by Vitor: 16 February 2012 - 03:51 PM

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#47 User is offline   Sylver 

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 04:33 PM

View PostRagingDemon, on 16 February 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

Who gives a s*** if there is a name for every submission in judo. Sambo and bjj have their own names. Most mma fighters who have excellent or even decent grappling will credit it to WRESTLING/bjj(gi and no-gi).Rousimar Palhares for example. Not JUDO/BJJ (gi and no-gi). Judo doesn't own the rights to the choke or any type of submission and cannot take credit for it every time someone uses them. Most no gi submissions have been used for thousands of years. Pankration of old times already included: hip throws, leg sweeps, pick ups, arm locks,shoulder locks, leg locks. So should I say that all judokas win because of pankration? No.

The point is not that they have names and there is no claim they are "exclusive to judo". The point is that all these submissions are also Judo submissions and it's quite possible to learn them in Judo. In other words, Judo (as a martial art) is every bit as relevant to MMA as other combat sports, and on record, some key Judo tools have been proven effective on wrestlers in MMA. Who cares were they were learned? We are talking about the effectiveness of techniques and of the art as a whole.

The only thing I am arguing is that "wrestling trumps Judo 9 times out of 10" is pure bollocks. And you can go on a joy ride all over the landscape but at the end of the day, you don't have a scrap of evidence to back up that trash talk.

Quote

Okay, your right. I guess this can't compete with no gi judo.


How are you going to make your point that these techniques will beat Judo 9 times out of 10... when it's the exact same techniques we use in judo? That is the contention: That wrestling beats Judo 9 times out of 10... and it's hogwash.

I am no trying to argue a "superiority" of judo over wrestling, judo is a form of wrestling anyway. But don't show me this and tell me it's 10 times better than Judo. It *is* judo.
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#48 User is offline   topo 

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 08:24 PM

View PostVitor, on 16 February 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

..." And, why did you disregard my post where I asked how many judoka compete in MMA compared to wrestlers in USA? You know there are far more wrestlers competing in the US MMA scene than judokas. It's only logical that there would be more champions from wrestling."

ok...fine let's put a spin on it.. since it's a "numbers game". Bellator is a better fight org. than for example M1. It's a safe bet to say that most of the Americans who fight in that event have background in wrestling. Hector Lombard is the Bellator champ and those crazy Americans threw the kitchen sink at him with backgrounds in bjj and wrestling and Hector beat everyone they threw at him.

Now since it's a numbers game why is Hector successful? what makes him any different from say a wrestler in the M1? He is fighting in a event or venue where the table is stacked for wrestlers.

Excuses..excuses blah blah blah.. :rolleyes:



If Russians (or anybody else) would share even fraction of the interest of Americans to MMA (or compact sambo) I think they would do very very well. At the moment this is not the case.
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#49 User is offline   Vitor 

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 09:06 PM

View Posttopo, on 16 February 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

If Russians (or anybody else) would share even fraction of the interest of Americans to MMA (or compact sambo) I think they would do very very well. At the moment this is not the case.


so now it's a matter of interest LOL last time i check combat Sombo was a national sport of Russia.. and even though MMA is now Mainstream it's still a small sport topo.. but the excuses are still good. :rolleyes:
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#50 User is offline   Ricebalereversal 

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 10:04 PM

Sport Sambo is the national sport, Combat is a very different minority sport.

Vinny is a smart guy, after getting ko'd via Bader he did what alot of Judo guys don't, he got out there and cross trained to make his mma game better:

http://www.MixedMart...01&page=1&pc=42

He shows that even sports which are close to mma (combat sambo) will not be as effective as a dedicated fighter who learns all they can specifically for mma. Unfortunately IMO Judo as it stands today is not close enough to mma so needs more tinkering than other sports which are closer. I think Ronda has made great bounds in that direction but I see those boundaries being tested by Tate, should be a very good fight!

Hey, I only coach at the local level and this is plain as day to me, it certainly is to high level mma coaches.

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#51 User is offline   Ricebalereversal 

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 10:08 PM

Sport Sambo is the national sport, Combat is a very different minority sport.

Vinny is a smart guy, after getting ko'd via Bader he did what alot of Judo guys don't, he got out there and cross trained to make his mma game better:

http://www.MixedMart...01&page=1&pc=42

He shows that even sports which are close to mma (combat sambo) will not be as effective as a dedicated fighter who learns all they can specifically for mma. Unfortunately IMO Judo as it stands today is not close enough to mma so needs more tinkering than other sports which are closer. I think Ronda has made great bounds in that direction but I see those boundaries being tested by Tate, should be a very good fight!

Hey, I only coach at the local level and this is plain as day to me, it certainly is to high level mma coaches.

Cheers
Terry Williams
http://youtu.be/mYPzMVXFkbY
http://www.samboaustralia.com
http://www.ozwarrior.com
http://www.ibf.com.au
MMA - Judo - Wrestling - Sambo - Pankration

"If you desire tranquility prepare to sweat"
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#52 User is offline   silverjudo 

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 10:10 PM

View Posttopo, on 16 February 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

If Russians (or anybody else) would share even fraction of the interest of Americans to MMA (or compact sambo) I think they would do very very well. At the moment this is not the case.


I agree for the most part. Since most people here agree that wrestling is a great base for mma training, and Russia has the best wrestling in the world, it follows that they have great potential for mma. Also several other eastern european and asian countries have great wrestling traditions, and less resources that the US. In the 2008 olympics there isn't a weight class where at least 2 former soviet union countries didn't place 2 in the top 3 (the US having only 3 of 71 medals). Also Russia has some great boxing, judo, sambo,....

I don't think it's 'interest' that's holding foreign countries back though. It's the fact that the UFC is a US production with the infrastructure and training to turn great athletes from wrestling into great mma fighters. If other countries can acquire the same resources and it were easier to get recognized by the UFC, and into the US, then there would definitely be more foreign fighters in the ufc.

http://en.wikipedia....Summer_Olympics
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#53 User is offline   Vitor 

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 10:23 PM

View PostRicebalereversal, on 16 February 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

Sport Sambo is the national sport, Combat is a very different minority sport.

Vinny is a smart guy, after getting ko'd via Bader he did what alot of Judo guys don't, he got out there and cross trained to make his mma game better:

http://www.MixedMart...01&page=1&pc=42

He shows that even sports which are close to mma (combat sambo) will not be as effective as a dedicated fighter who learns all they can specifically for mma. Unfortunately IMO Judo as it stands today is not close enough to mma so needs more tinkering than other sports which are closer. I think Ronda has made great bounds in that direction but I see those boundaries being tested by Tate, should be a very good fight!

Hey, I only coach at the local level and this is plain as day to me, it certainly is to high level mma coaches.

Cheers


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#54 User is offline   RagingDemon 

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 10:50 PM

View PostSylver, on 16 February 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

The point is not that they have names and there is no claim they are "exclusive to judo". The point is that all these submissions are also Judo submissions and it's quite possible to learn them in Judo. In other words, Judo (as a martial art) is every bit as relevant to MMA as other combat sports, and on record, some key Judo tools have been proven effective on wrestlers in MMA. Who cares were they were learned? We are talking about the effectiveness of techniques and of the art as a whole.

The only thing I am arguing is that "wrestling trumps Judo 9 times out of 10" is pure bollocks. And you can go on a joy ride all over the landscape but at the end of the day, you don't have a scrap of evidence to back up that trash talk.


How are you going to make your point that these techniques will beat Judo 9 times out of 10... when it's the exact same techniques we use in judo? That is the contention: That wrestling beats Judo 9 times out of 10... and it's hogwash.

I am no trying to argue a "superiority" of judo over wrestling, judo is a form of wrestling anyway. But don't show me this and tell me it's 10 times better than Judo. It *is* judo.

Wrestling trumps judo when it comes to mma. Bewteen the sports themselves there are chumps, there are chimps then there are champs.
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#55 User is offline   BoxingJudoka 

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 11:00 PM

View PostRagingDemon, on 16 February 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

Wrestling trumps judo when it comes to mma. Bewteen the sports themselves there are chumps, there are chimps then there are champs.


If you mean wrestling is a more important part of a solid MMA mix than judo is, then I agree ... the difference between gi and no-gi ensures that. If you mean that a pure wrestler will have a significant advantage over a pure judoka in MMA then I disagree - I think it would be pretty even, the wrestler's advantage in being better at no-gi being nullified by his or her lack of knowledge of chokes and armbars. Unless you're talking about catch wrestling.

And oddly enough, in the 20's they had a number of matches between catch wrestlers and judoka (Ad Santel etc), and the results were pretty much a wash. Which is what I think would happen between a pure wrestler and a pure judoka in MMA. Though its hard to imagine anyone being stupid enough to actually compete as either a pure wrestler or a pure judoka in MMA.

This post has been edited by BoxingJudoka: 16 February 2012 - 11:00 PM

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#56 User is offline   Vitor 

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 11:39 PM

View PostBoxingJudoka, on 16 February 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

If you mean wrestling is a more important part of a solid MMA mix than judo is, then I agree ... the difference between gi and no-gi ensures that. If you mean that a pure wrestler will have a significant advantage over a pure judoka in MMA then I disagree - I think it would be pretty even, the wrestler's advantage in being better at no-gi being nullified by his or her lack of knowledge of chokes and armbars. Unless you're talking about catch wrestling.

And oddly enough, in the 20's they had a number of matches between catch wrestlers and judoka (Ad Santel etc), and the results were pretty much a wash. Which is what I think would happen between a pure wrestler and a pure judoka in MMA. Though its hard to imagine anyone being stupid enough to actually compete as either a pure wrestler or a pure judoka in MMA.


My catch-wrestling History is a little rusty but Ad Santel claim the title (at that time) world judo champ by beating High ranking Judoka with catch-wrestling right?
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#57 User is offline   RagingDemon 

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 12:01 AM

View PostVitor, on 16 February 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

My catch-wrestling History is a little rusty but Ad Santel claim the title (at that time) world judo champ by beating High ranking Judoka with catch-wrestling right?

That's right. Ad Santel defeated 3 of the kodokans representatives.
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#58 User is offline   RagingDemon 

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 12:43 AM

View PostBoxingJudoka, on 16 February 2012 - 05:28 AM, said:

Really? I could have sworn GSP was a MMA'er. Maybe they've changed the rules lately, but back when I wrestled you'd be disqualified for punching someone ... and when I look up GSP in wiki, there's a lot of material about his success in MMA, and none about him winning major (or even minor) wrestling tournaments.

GSP does MMA. So does every other MMA champion. If he (or anyone else) limited himself to wrestling (or judo or BJJ or boxing or any pure art) he'd lose, and badly.

GSP didn't have an interest in wrestling in the Olympics? Every damn fight he's had he dominates with wrestling. I haven't meet one guy who had great wrestling who rarely showed up to the wrestling class. One of the main reasons GSP wins is because of his great wrestling. I am not saying a pure wrestler will win a belt. I am saying judo is not as crucial as wrestling is to mma. That's my point.
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#59 User is offline   Haomaru 

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 12:55 AM

"I am saying judo is not as crucial as wrestling is to mma"

that is a very good statment.
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#60 User is offline   BoxingJudoka 

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 03:05 AM

View PostVitor, on 16 February 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

My catch-wrestling History is a little rusty but Ad Santel claim the title (at that time) world judo champ by beating High ranking Judoka with catch-wrestling right?


Yup, my understanding is that he beat the Kodokan champion Ito the first time by injuring him with a takedown, lost the rematch a few months later by a choke. Like I said, its typically a wash between pure wrestling and pure judo.

This post has been edited by BoxingJudoka: 17 February 2012 - 03:13 AM

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