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Jigoro Kano Ju no Kata Is this what it purports to be? Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   aiyotsu 

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 08:47 AM

hello.
Just found this.
Is it for real.



regards
aiyotsu


PS not very good at this stuff if someone can make it useable that would be apreciated
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#2 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 11:44 AM

View Postaiyotsu, on 08 February 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

hello.
Just found this.
Is it for real.

My link

regards
aiyotsu


PS not very good at this stuff if someone can make it useable that would be apreciated


Neither of those performers include Kanô Jigorô. Don't believe everything that is said on YouTube !

One must exert care in interpreting such a clip as it is taped with insufficient images per second (<24) and probably on a hand-cranked camera producing inconsistent rhythm and unrealistic speed. If on is able to look beyond that then it is a useful document that teaches some important things.
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#3 User is offline   Taigyo 

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 05:38 PM

View PostCichorei Kano, on 08 February 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Neither of those performers include Kanô Jigorô. Don't believe everything that is said on YouTube !

One must exert care in interpreting such a clip as it is taped with insufficient images per second (<24) and probably on a hand-cranked camera producing inconsistent rhythm and unrealistic speed. If on is able to look beyond that then it is a useful document that teaches some important things.

You have gone off about this before, so the faces are pretty unclear, but this has been presented as an example of Kano sensei doing ju no kata in quite a few places. Any idea who it really is? Or the date of the filming?

As for the time compression issue, the standard frame rate for hand cranked movies (which the projectors designed for this purpose ran the movies at) was 16-18 frames per second, versus 24 frames per second which became standard in the late 1920's (1927-1930). The interesting point, which I discussed in another thread is that if you correct for the difference in frame rate the old film comes out to 6-6 1/2 minutes for the kata. Current examples of this kata in international competition are 8- 8 1/2 minutes. In the U.S. it is probably even more, as performing this kata slowly has become a bit of a fetish. There appear to be a few hops in the film, but I strongly suspect that a professional photographer was pretty good at maintaining a steady rate of exposure. Most of us are most familiar with the speeded up motion of many silent comedies, but this was also done purposely by overcranking to deliberately achieve that effect.

So, even with the film rate distoritions, I would say that the people doing the kata are doing it at a significantly faster pace than is typically observed today, with a correspondingly greater sense of flow and connection. Is this the standard? Who knows? Most teachers actually do not like to be filmed as they know that can become the "standard" by which everything is judged, and no single execution of a kata is perfect, even by someone like Kano shihan. Otherwise, why wouldn't Kano sensei have deliberately had every kata filmed, he likely had the resources at his disposal.
So, is this a case of an individual interpretation? Who are these guys.

I have also heard stories from people who watched Kyuzo Mifune sensei do ju no kata so slow that it took almost 30 minutes to complete. I do not think he intended this to be an example of how it should be done, but rather was his own training exercise. How slow can you go and maintain kuzushi and control. Are there any films of him demonstrating Ju no Kata? An interesting example of personal interpretation of kata can also be seen in the famous film, with his itsutsu no kata having quite a few differences from the current 'standard' version
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#4 User is offline   bythesea 

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 07:35 PM

I agree with your point Taigyo. While it is hand cranked, I think as humans we have an excellent sense of relative motion. Yes, we can be fooled by optical illusions, but all in all, we're pretty good at getting a 'sense' or intuition of the rate of motion. Even with the herky jerky quality of the film, you can get a sense that this is done at a much more natural pace. Uke is just moving toward tori naturally, no overtly ostentatious ayumi ashi style movement that I myself am guilty of as a beginner of kata.

I don't think however this is Kano. It simply doesn't look like him.
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#5 User is offline   aiyotsu 

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 08:18 PM

hello Thanks to each of you for the points you have made. I was at first doubtful that this was Jigoro Kano.
However the more I watched it, the more I began to see some similarities. Kano Shihan varied his appearance throughout his life. I began to wonder if it could be him.
I do agree that iether way it is an important document and re afirms some things I believe about Ju no Kata.
I would be very interested to know more about this clip. I am sure others would too.
Kind regards aiyotsu
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#6 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 10:28 PM

View PostTaigyo, on 09 February 2012 - 02:38 AM, said:

You have gone off about this before, so the faces are pretty unclear, but this has been presented as an example of Kano sensei doing ju no kata in quite a few places. Any idea who it really is? Or the date of the filming?

As for the time compression issue, the standard frame rate for hand cranked movies (which the projectors designed for this purpose ran the movies at) was 16-18 frames per second, versus 24 frames per second which became standard in the late 1920's (1927-1930). The interesting point, which I discussed in another thread is that if you correct for the difference in frame rate the old film comes out to 6-6 1/2 minutes for the kata. Current examples of this kata in international competition are 8- 8 1/2 minutes. In the U.S. it is probably even more, as performing this kata slowly has become a bit of a fetish. There appear to be a few hops in the film, but I strongly suspect that a professional photographer was pretty good at maintaining a steady rate of exposure. Most of us are most familiar with the speeded up motion of many silent comedies, but this was also done purposely by overcranking to deliberately achieve that effect.

So, even with the film rate distoritions, I would say that the people doing the kata are doing it at a significantly faster pace than is typically observed today, with a correspondingly greater sense of flow and connection. Is this the standard? Who knows? Most teachers actually do not like to be filmed as they know that can become the "standard" by which everything is judged, and no single execution of a kata is perfect, even by someone like Kano shihan. Otherwise, why wouldn't Kano sensei have deliberately had every kata filmed, he likely had the resources at his disposal.
So, is this a case of an individual interpretation? Who are these guys.

I have also heard stories from people who watched Kyuzo Mifune sensei do ju no kata so slow that it took almost 30 minutes to complete. I do not think he intended this to be an example of how it should be done, but rather was his own training exercise. How slow can you go and maintain kuzushi and control. Are there any films of him demonstrating Ju no Kata? An interesting example of personal interpretation of kata can also be seen in the famous film, with his itsutsu no kata having quite a few differences from the current 'standard' version


You were actually just watching Mifune do jû-no-kata since he was the uke in this clip. There are no surviving taped examples of Kanô performing jû-no-kata, it is said. However, as you likely know, Nangô Jirô provided Leggett with pictures of Kanô performing jû-no-kata with the recommendation to "do something good with them" which Leggett then used to compose his book on jû-no-kata and which likely with Born for the mat (and its successor) are the most authoritative texts on the topic. However, it has been suggested that those pictures came from something that was originally recorded on film, but it is unclear what has happened to it.

There do exist some other old performances, such as one by Koizumi. It seems though that already in the 1920s this exercise shifted more and more to the Joshi-bu. As you know jû-no-kata for quite some time was looked down on by many jûdôka and referred to as "a women's kata".

With regard to the people in clip. It is absolutely certain it is not Kanô who is the tori. I believe that Kanô himself was not even present at the event. There does exist a montage of the pictures with Kanô in order to mimic a movie:

http://www.judo-educazione.it/video/ju-no-kata_kano.html

Some have suggested it would be Yamashita Yoshitsugu, and again others have suggested that it might be Isogai Hajime. This is not surprising since these are the names of the few other most known and early 10th dan-holders, excluding Nagaoka, since it must be quite obvious it isn't him, since no one has even claimed it would. It cannot be Yamashita Yoshitsugu. Why not ? Because Yamashita during that performance had more hair as shown in the Koshiki-no-kata performance, and on the enhanced picture below taken from the performers posing:

Attached Image

If ... the deduction is correct, that ALL of the performers are on that picture, then the only remaining option is Isogai. If, however, one of the performers is not on there, then I would say the person in the video also resembles Munakata Itsurô.

I assume you recognize all of them.

I have no disagreement with anything else you point out. I do not know the answer why Kanô did not have those kata filmed, other than the same reasons why he did not specifically had randori or ukemi filmed. Kata of jûdô as conceived were not intended for the purpose of demonstration. This only got implemented many ears after the foundation of Kôdôkan with the Kagami Biraki, with one earlier exception obviously intended to market jûdô. However, I don't think that Kanô even in his wildest fantasies intended kata to be performed and then 'evaluated' by people according to a standard, well at least not a standard in the sense of something people have to memorize and replicate, but only a standard like there might be standard to randori namely reflecting good effective jûdô that adheres to its basic principles.

This post has been edited by Cichorei Kano: 08 February 2012 - 10:31 PM

"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
"I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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#7 User is offline   aiyotsu 

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 09:34 AM

Thanks once again. This is excellent information.
regards aiyotsu

View PostCichorei Kano, on 09 February 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

You were actually just watching Mifune do jû-no-kata since he was the uke in this clip. There are no surviving taped examples of Kanô performing jû-no-kata, it is said. However, as you likely know, Nangô Jirô provided Leggett with pictures of Kanô performing jû-no-kata with the recommendation to "do something good with them" which Leggett then used to compose his book on jû-no-kata and which likely with Born for the mat (and its successor) are the most authoritative texts on the topic. However, it has been suggested that those pictures came from something that was originally recorded on film, but it is unclear what has happened to it.

There do exist some other old performances, such as one by Koizumi. It seems though that already in the 1920s this exercise shifted more and more to the Joshi-bu. As you know jû-no-kata for quite some time was looked down on by many jûdôka and referred to as "a women's kata".

With regard to the people in clip. It is absolutely certain it is not Kanô who is the tori. I believe that Kanô himself was not even present at the event. There does exist a montage of the pictures with Kanô in order to mimic a movie:

http://www.judo-educazione.it/video/ju-no-kata_kano.html

Some have suggested it would be Yamashita Yoshitsugu, and again others have suggested that it might be Isogai Hajime. This is not surprising since these are the names of the few other most known and early 10th dan-holders, excluding Nagaoka, since it must be quite obvious it isn't him, since no one has even claimed it would. It cannot be Yamashita Yoshitsugu. Why not ? Because Yamashita during that performance had more hair as shown in the Koshiki-no-kata performance, and on the enhanced picture below taken from the performers posing:

Attachment KataPerformers.jpg

If ... the deduction is correct, that ALL of the performers are on that picture, then the only remaining option is Isogai. If, however, one of the performers is not on there, then I would say the person in the video also resembles Munakata Itsurô.

I assume you recognize all of them.

I have no disagreement with anything else you point out. I do not know the answer why Kanô did not have those kata filmed, other than the same reasons why he did not specifically had randori or ukemi filmed. Kata of jûdô as conceived were not intended for the purpose of demonstration. This only got implemented many ears after the foundation of Kôdôkan with the Kagami Biraki, with one earlier exception obviously intended to market jûdô. However, I don't think that Kanô even in his wildest fantasies intended kata to be performed and then 'evaluated' by people according to a standard, well at least not a standard in the sense of something people have to memorize and replicate, but only a standard like there might be standard to randori namely reflecting good effective jûdô that adheres to its basic principles.

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#8 User is offline   aiyotsu 

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 09:17 AM

hello again does anyone have a date for thie making of this clip or an aproximate time frame.

I am also particularly interested in the clear performance of Ippon seoniage in Kata mawashi, as shown in this clip. In particular the positioning of the Tori's right arm. Unless I am mistaken it is the same as that described by CK recently as that being in the original form of Nage no kata. My co instructor and I are quite intrigued by this and have already been researching it in our training for some months. It seems to be superior from both a biomechanic and a physics point of view. To us it seems to maintain superior kuzushi and allow uke little or no escape Are there others out there who have considered this.
Thank you
aiyotsu
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#9 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 05:01 PM

View Postaiyotsu, on 16 February 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

hello again does anyone have a date for thie making of this clip or an aproximate time frame.

I am also particularly interested in the clear performance of Ippon seoniage in Kata mawashi, as shown in this clip. In particular the positioning of the Tori's right arm. Unless I am mistaken it is the same as that described by CK recently as that being in the original form of Nage no kata. My co instructor and I are quite intrigued by this and have already been researching it in our training for some months. It seems to be superior from both a biomechanic and a physics point of view. To us it seems to maintain superior kuzushi and allow uke little or no escape Are there others out there who have considered this.
Thank you
aiyotsu


Aiyotsu,

The original 10-technique Nage-no-kata is not known by me, not by Daigo, not by Fukuda, not by anyone alive. It is lost. I do know the pre-1906 15-technique Nage-no-kata, which was different from the current one, but it isn't really the original form.

It was performed like this:

Attached Image

This post has been edited by Cichorei Kano: 16 February 2012 - 06:50 PM

"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
"I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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#10 User is offline   bob thomas 

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 05:22 PM

Where is it?
Bob
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#11 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 05:33 PM

View Postbob thomas, on 17 February 2012 - 02:22 AM, said:

Where is it?
Bob


Bob,

There have been problems with showing attachments ever since the forum databases changed servers. There is a thread about this somewhere. Nothing I can do about it.
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
"I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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#12 User is offline   aiyotsu 

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 06:27 PM

View PostCichorei Kano, on 17 February 2012 - 05:33 AM, said:

Bob,

There have been problems with showing attachments ever since the forum databases changed servers. There is a thread about this somewhere. Nothing I can do about it.

Hello CK thanks for your inpot and effort . That is definately what I am interested in and anyone's research or thoughts surounding it.
Hopefully your attachment will become available in the (near) future thanks again
aiyotsu
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#13 User is offline   bob thomas 

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 08:48 PM

View PostCichorei Kano, on 16 February 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

Bob,

There have been problems with showing attachments ever since the forum databases changed servers. There is a thread about this somewhere. Nothing I can do about it.

Thank you for trying CK.I look forward to seeing it though.
Bob
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