JudoForum.com: Ne Waza - JudoForum.com

Jump to content

  • (5 Pages)
  • +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Ne Waza Rate Topic: -----

#16 User is offline   Jacob3 

  • Judo Forum Shodan
  • Icon
  • Group: Special Members
  • Posts: 659
  • Joined: 14-October 10

Posted 06 February 2012 - 07:57 PM

View PostDutch, on 06 February 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

Try it indeed, find out its bullfeces and start working your ebis and other movements on the ground asap.


You do realise that ending up belly down on the mat, is a very common posture in Judo? If not because of defence, it might be because you are forced to. So it is very useful to train how to get out of that position / how to use it, and how to act if someone else does end up like that.

Of course it is useless to just lay there and only defend. However, any experienced newaza practitioner will recognise this as an extremely common position to end up in. So it is a wise question by the OP, how to deal with that. I really do not see the usefullness of all the mocking here. It does say enough about the Judo skill level of people though...
0

#17 User is offline   medo 

  • Judo Forum Nikyu
  • Icon
  • Group: Special Members
  • Posts: 263
  • Joined: 29-December 08

Posted 06 February 2012 - 08:33 PM

View PostDutch, on 06 February 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

This video teaches you to wait untill the pin is settled before you escape. It also teaches you to use strength instead of leverage.

A newbie at judo should become mobile on the ground. It is natural to walk on two legs and be mobile, but on the ground you are at a disadvantage when you cannot move quickly. Therefor drilling the ebis and elaborating on them with Ginastica Naturel is the best thing to do for a beginner.

The most important part of escaping a pin is to recognise a pin before its fully on, then move your hips so you can escape before the pressure is applied. If you the pressure is applied though, you need to use leverage coming from the hips and/or frames with your arms to escape.


Ahhhh!!! You lost me here ginastica/enis, please Judo forum.

I agree not ideal, does show sequence of escapes and counters from holds. Beginners need foundation, one has to start somewere.
Try teaching a beginner to recognise a possible pin situation and how to avoid, other than a kubinage wrestling strength take down into kesagatame.
Dangerous position recognition starts to develope with continued practice a good coach will be able give guidance here as the player developes.

I just don't get your problem with belly down I watched some of the Paris tourni saturday and belly down was very prominent.

Its Judo.

Pete
0

#18 User is offline   Dutch 

  • Judo Forum Rokudan
  • Icon
  • Group: Special Members
  • Posts: 6,965
  • Joined: 16-November 05

Posted 06 February 2012 - 08:41 PM

View PostJacob3, on 06 February 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

You do realise that ending up belly down on the mat, is a very common posture in Judo? If not because of defence, it might be because you are forced to. So it is very useful to train how to get out of that position / how to use it, and how to act if someone else does end up like that.

Of course it is useless to just lay there and only defend. However, any experienced newaza practitioner will recognise this as an extremely common position to end up in. So it is a wise question by the OP, how to deal with that. I really do not see the usefullness of all the mocking here. It does say enough about the Judo skill level of people though...


Yes you should train how to get out of that position. But thats not what medo said, he said to look for that position. He even advised the position as a goto when randori-ing with heavy trainingpartners.
Bushi no nasake - the tenderness of a warrior
0

#19 User is offline   medo 

  • Judo Forum Nikyu
  • Icon
  • Group: Special Members
  • Posts: 263
  • Joined: 29-December 08

Posted 06 February 2012 - 08:58 PM

View PostDutch, on 06 February 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

Yes you should train how to get out of that position. But thats not what medo said, he said to look for that position. He even advised the position as a goto when randori-ing with heavy trainingpartners.


Ohh thats the "personal" problem, lets say don't do belly down. Problem solved everyones happy :rolleyes: Go into "guard" until matte called. :blink:

Well done ;wry)

Pete
0

#20 User is offline   Dutch 

  • Judo Forum Rokudan
  • Icon
  • Group: Special Members
  • Posts: 6,965
  • Joined: 16-November 05

Posted 06 February 2012 - 08:59 PM

View Postmedo, on 06 February 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

Ahhhh!!! You lost me here ginastica/enis, please Judo forum.

I agree not ideal, does show sequence of escapes and counters from holds. Beginners need foundation, one has to start somewere.
Try teaching a beginner to recognise a possible pin situation and how to avoid, other than a kubinage wrestling strength take down into kesagatame.
Dangerous position recognition starts to develope with continued practice a good coach will be able give guidance here as the player developes.

I just don't get your problem with belly down I watched some of the Paris tourni saturday and belly down was very prominent.

Its Judo.

Pete


What is the best way to defend a throw? The littlest risk for you is when you recognise the throw and are able to move out of the way before the throw is fully executed. The most risky one is to try and counter it at the last moment.

Now in Ne Waza, its the same. But what a beginner lacks is the ability to make his body move away from the offense of his partner. Its like he is allowed to move on his knees and the other guy on his feet. In that case its more clear dont you think? Priority of training should be to learn how to move properly.

Now about ginastica naturel. Its actually like advanced ebis. So its like a step up from normal ebi. Now that the beginner has learnt to walk, he is taught to run. Ginastica Naturel is applicable for every grappling sport that involves groundfight. Dont be close minded, look it up. Probably you already recognise a lot of movements but now you have them systemized, something a judoka like you should appreciate surely ;wry)


Now my problem with belly down, is the same as many people have with stiff arming. Its a position/posture that is used solely for stalling and having the referee safe your behind. The only reason you see it so much in judo is because the rules allow you to "skip" ne waza using this posture. So if you suck on ne waza, just fall to your belly and wait for the referee to call you back up.

Imagine this situation. You are allowed unlimited time on the ground, no matte call. The other rules are all Judo (so no leglocks, crossfacing etc). Would you still look to lay on your belly? If you are honest you would say no, because its just a matter of time before you get choked out or turnt over.

So yes belly down is prominent, because of the rules of judo. And the only reason to train this posture is to learn how to get out of it asap. Either to a standing position or a guard position where at least you have offensive options. If you are experienced in Ne waza like I read into your posts, you shouldnt feel comfortable in this belly down position at all and just agree with me.
Bushi no nasake - the tenderness of a warrior
0

#21 User is offline   Jacob3 

  • Judo Forum Shodan
  • Icon
  • Group: Special Members
  • Posts: 659
  • Joined: 14-October 10

Posted 06 February 2012 - 09:40 PM

View PostDutch, on 06 February 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:


Now my problem with belly down, is the same as many people have with stiff arming. Its a position/posture that is used solely for stalling and having the referee safe your behind. The only reason you see it so much in judo is because the rules allow you to "skip" ne waza using this posture. So if you suck on ne waza, just fall to your belly and wait for the referee to call you back up.



Sorry, but after rereading the OP´s question, I still do not see him anywhere referring to competition situations. He is talking about Judo, which is a LOT broader then just the competition part. In normal randori ( which is one of two main forms of practicing Judo ), the belly down situation is very common. Not at all because of the competition rules. Uke can be easily 'forced' into that position without even wanting to. Being there, Tori needs to have the skills to effectively turn him over with immediate control ( or control him belly down ). So yes, it is usefull to practice that situation. On the other hand, Tori might find it useful to turn belly down to avoid a threath from uke. He needs to develop skills to recognise the dangers from his uke working on him now, and even skills to control uke from that very position. And yes, there are plenty possibilities.

I agree with you that it is useless to just lay there, belly down and see what happens, or to avoid any kind of action. But that is not what this question is about. The OP wants to learn something, and everyone telling him just to forget about this position, is not at all helping him.

So again, to the OP. It is hard to describe in text the many possibilities. Try to find some vids on youtube about newaza techniques, and if they seem unclear to you, many here can help you on your way by explaining them!
0

#22 User is offline   medo 

  • Judo Forum Nikyu
  • Icon
  • Group: Special Members
  • Posts: 263
  • Joined: 29-December 08

Posted 06 February 2012 - 09:47 PM

View PostDutch, on 06 February 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

What is the best way to defend a throw? The littlest risk for you is when you recognise the throw and are able to move out of the way before the throw is fully executed. The most risky one is to try and counter it at the last moment.

Now in Ne Waza, its the same. But what a beginner lacks is the ability to make his body move away from the offense of his partner. Its like he is allowed to move on his knees and the other guy on his feet. In that case its more clear dont you think? Priority of training should be to learn how to move properly.

Now about ginastica naturel. Its actually like advanced ebis. So its like a step up from normal ebi. Now that the beginner has learnt to walk, he is taught to run. Ginastica Naturel is applicable for every grappling sport that involves groundfight. Dont be close minded, look it up. Probably you already recognise a lot of movements but now you have them systemized, something a judoka like you should appreciate surely ;wry)


Now my problem with belly down, is the same as many people have with stiff arming. Its a position/posture that is used solely for stalling and having the referee safe your behind. The only reason you see it so much in judo is because the rules allow you to "skip" ne waza using this posture. So if you suck on ne waza, just fall to your belly and wait for the referee to call you back up.

Imagine this situation. You are allowed unlimited time on the ground, no matte call. The other rules are all Judo (so no leglocks, crossfacing etc). Would you still look to lay on your belly? If you are honest you would say no, because its just a matter of time before you get choked out or turnt over.

So yes belly down is prominent, because of the rules of judo. And the only reason to train this posture is to learn how to get out of it asap. Either to a standing position or a guard position where at least you have offensive options. If you are experienced in Ne waza like I read into your posts, you shouldnt feel comfortable in this belly down position at all and just agree with me.



Done a search, best display seems to be this http://www.youtube.c...h?v=YWUR_3s2hSE was doing these exercises back in the 70's in Judo.

These exercises have always been an intregral part of a Judo warm up(diluted slightly for youngsters) nought new there.

Ebi both forward and back I tend to use as a guide to the development of pupils normally by the end of year one they have got it perfect, forward(no hands) but takes upto year 2 to get it backward withouthout hands to assist and some never get it.

So this is basic warm up done first thing in lessons.

No point in commenting on rest, I wish you the best in your endeavours, I have let myself be sucked in and become a little sarcastic.

My apologies

Pete
0

#23 User is offline   Dutch 

  • Judo Forum Rokudan
  • Icon
  • Group: Special Members
  • Posts: 6,965
  • Joined: 16-November 05

Posted 06 February 2012 - 10:02 PM

View PostJacob3, on 06 February 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

Sorry, but after rereading the OP´s question, I still do not see him anywhere referring to competition situations. He is talking about Judo, which is a LOT broader then just the competition part. In normal randori ( which is one of two main forms of practicing Judo ), the belly down situation is very common. Not at all because of the competition rules. Uke can be easily 'forced' into that position without even wanting to. Being there, Tori needs to have the skills to effectively turn him over with immediate control ( or control him belly down ). So yes, it is usefull to practice that situation. On the other hand, Tori might find it useful to turn belly down to avoid a threath from uke. He needs to develop skills to recognise the dangers from his uke working on him now, and even skills to control uke from that very position. And yes, there are plenty possibilities.


In randori belly down should be really uncommon, and even more unwanted. Turning belly down to avoid danger is like putting out a fire with gasoline. ESPECIALLY in randori when there is no referee to call matte.

If you think its easy to force some1 that doesnt want to be belly down, into that position. You have to show me that technique, because forcing anyone in that position that doesnt want to be there is very hard.

View PostJacob3, on 06 February 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

I agree with you that it is useless to just lay there, belly down and see what happens, or to avoid any kind of action. But that is not what this question is about. The OP wants to learn something, and everyone telling him just to forget about this position, is not at all helping him.


Im happy to see we agree. Im dont want him to not practise this position at all. But I advise that its smarter to learn movements on the ground first. Then later go into specific positions. Yes in judo belly down is relevant. No it should not be a position you want to be in... ever... Learn to avoid it, or improve that position.

View PostJacob3, on 06 February 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

So again, to the OP. It is hard to describe in text the many possibilities. Try to find some vids on youtube about newaza techniques, and if they seem unclear to you, many here can help you on your way by explaining them!


Agreed, also ask lots of specific questions to your teacher, fellow students and here.
Bushi no nasake - the tenderness of a warrior
0

#24 User is offline   Dutch 

  • Judo Forum Rokudan
  • Icon
  • Group: Special Members
  • Posts: 6,965
  • Joined: 16-November 05

Posted 06 February 2012 - 10:06 PM

View Postmedo, on 06 February 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

Done a search, best display seems to be this http://www.youtube.c...h?v=YWUR_3s2hSE was doing these exercises back in the 70's in Judo.

These exercises have always been an intregral part of a Judo warm up(diluted slightly for youngsters) nought new there.

Ebi both forward and back I tend to use as a guide to the development of pupils normally by the end of year one they have got it perfect, forward(no hands) but takes upto year 2 to get it backward withouthout hands to assist and some never get it.

So this is basic warm up done first thing in lessons.

No point in commenting on rest, I wish you the best in your endeavours, I have let myself be sucked in and become a little sarcastic.

My apologies

Pete


Ah cool so you did find the excersizes. Well I know them by the name of Ginastica Naturel, you may know them by another name, or not even by name. These excersizes are very important for groundwork you agree no? Indeed should be done first thing in training always.

No worries about the sarcasm, internet discussions tend to do that. In real life probably it would have been a different discussion although my opinion would have been the same ;wry)

cheers
Bushi no nasake - the tenderness of a warrior
1

#25 User is offline   The Joe-Man 

  • Judo Forum Gokyu
  • Icon
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 62
  • Joined: 15-January 09

Posted 06 February 2012 - 11:10 PM

View PostHedgehogey, on 05 February 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:


If your opponent lies belly down with his body flattened out and stays there rather than attempting an attack, go ahead and be a princess. Apply pressure with your forearm on his forehead to pull his head up so you can choke him. Put your knee on his back and ride around. Or his head. While you do that tip an imaginary ten gallon hat and swing an imaginary lasso. Grind his face into the mat. Yank his collar across his face and take a second or two to abrade his face with it. This may not lead to him giving up that position immediately but boy will he not want to do that with you again.

It is important to remember, if you begin to feel remorse for your actions, it is your job to punish uke for excessive bellying out. This is mutual benefit and welfare in action! By making his experience of bellying out as much like a stay at Guantonamo Bay as possible, you force him to develop active groundwork, instead of waiting for the ref to stand him up.


So... did anyone else read this as "I don't know how to deal with on opponent who is belly down within the confines of Judo"?

Mutual welfare and benefit. An opponent who goes belly down is giving you an opportunity to work on your offense. It's probably best not to humiliate him for it.
1

#26 User is offline   Hedgehogey 

  • Judo Forum Nidan
  • Icon
  • Group: Special Members
  • Posts: 1,072
  • Joined: 09-September 09

Posted 07 February 2012 - 12:33 AM

That is thinking only of yourself though! Mutual Welfare must go both ways. You must help him learn too, and if you don't help him learn not to belly out, he won't. It's no different than getting thrown over and over again for stiffarming or adopting bad posture.

This post has been edited by Hedgehogey: 07 February 2012 - 12:34 AM

0

#27 User is offline   UK_Noire 

  • Judo Forum Sankyu
  • Icon
  • Group: Special Members
  • Posts: 178
  • Joined: 18-August 11

Posted 07 February 2012 - 04:53 AM

View PostHedgehogey, on 06 February 2012 - 05:15 AM, said:

It is important to remember, if you begin to feel remorse for your actions, it is your job to punish uke for excessive bellying out. This is mutual benefit and welfare in action! By making his experience of bellying out as much like a stay at Guantonamo Bay as possible, you force him to develop active groundwork, instead of waiting for the ref to stand him up.


I disagree with this. Whilst i am a big fan of ne-waza, if i am fighting an opponent who i know is at least as good, or better, on the ground as I am, I will do everything I can to get stood up as quickly as possible. Ne-waza is a lot more tiring than tachi-waza and I sure as hell don't want to be caught for 15 or 20 seconds at a time defending like hell; it's exhausting. Nothing wrong with going prone if you're in a bad position in shiai, although I would always recommend turtling, or guard. I would always advise against going prone or turtling in randori however. randori should be about mutual practice, not about one person practicing his offence, while uke just lays there doing nothing.

The rest of your post was pretty crap as well.
3

#28 User is offline   Jacob3 

  • Judo Forum Shodan
  • Icon
  • Group: Special Members
  • Posts: 659
  • Joined: 14-October 10

Posted 07 February 2012 - 06:37 AM

View PostDutch, on 06 February 2012 - 11:02 PM, said:

In randori belly down should be really uncommon, and even more unwanted. Turning belly down to avoid danger is like putting out a fire with gasoline. ESPECIALLY in randori when there is no referee to call matte.


Well, it is not uncommon. In fact, have you ever tried to get out of a hold, by turning to your stomach? I am sure you have. There are simply many, many situations where it is logical to flatten out for a moment. And do not get me wrong, I do not mean that one should really be going into defence immediately, but as soon as you end up belly down, for a split second, and your partner immediately takes advantage and controls you there, you have no choice but to defend = safely get out of that position. Your partner will try to control you since your possibilities are limited.



View PostDutch, on 06 February 2012 - 11:02 PM, said:

If you think its easy to force some1 that doesnt want to be belly down, into that position. You have to show me that technique, because forcing anyone in that position that doesnt want to be there is very hard.


I never said that it was easy, but there are many techniques that end up belly down. Ever practiced katame no kata before? Look at the last two techniques for example, and suppose the armbar/legbar does not work properly. And there are simply many more like that.
0

#29 User is offline   Hedgehogey 

  • Judo Forum Nidan
  • Icon
  • Group: Special Members
  • Posts: 1,072
  • Joined: 09-September 09

Posted 07 February 2012 - 06:38 AM

View PostUK_Noire, on 06 February 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

Ne-waza is a lot more tiring than tachi-waza and I sure as hell don't want to be caught for 15 or 20 seconds at a time defending like hell; it's exhausting.


It is if you're bad at it. I find the enforced frenetic pace of tachi waza in competition more tiring, myself.

Quote

Nothing wrong with going prone if you're in a bad position in shiai, although I would always recommend turtling, or guard.


I'm not saying never turn belly down to avoid a pin. I'm saying that sitting there with your belly on the mat like a walrus, stalling for time until the ref stands you up is bad judo. You should be immediately going for an active, attacking position.

Quote

The rest of your post was pretty crap as well.


Got anything specific or did you just wanna give me the finger?
3

#30 User is offline   Jacob3 

  • Judo Forum Shodan
  • Icon
  • Group: Special Members
  • Posts: 659
  • Joined: 14-October 10

Posted 07 February 2012 - 06:39 AM

View PostHedgehogey, on 07 February 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

That is thinking only of yourself though! Mutual Welfare must go both ways. You must help him learn too, and if you don't help him learn not to belly out, he won't. It's no different than getting thrown over and over again for stiffarming or adopting bad posture.


When do you realise that sometimes it is better to be silent when you have nothing reasonable to say? You are not at all adding anything usefull to this discussion, other then again making clear what kind of person you are. I noticed that the OP has not responded anymore after his first post, probably because of all the nonsense you are spilling.
0

  • (5 Pages)
  • +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic