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The Japanese men's heavyweights What happened? Rate Topic: -----

#16 User is offline   PointyShinyBurning 

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 04:11 PM

View Postbythesea, on 08 February 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

I disagree with this. Maybe you're thinking of 1882. Have you been to Tokyo lately? I've stood next to some of the big guys on the tatami in Japan, and they are as huge as anyone else. Perhaps in the past Japanese people were shorter on average, but there are plenty of big Japanese dudes (or Asian dudes) in general. I work out with one every week.
"Shorter on average" doesn't mean "there are no large people in Japan".

http://en.wikipedia....round_the_world
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#17 User is offline   Ranma 

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 04:15 PM

View PostPointyShinyBurning, on 08 February 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

"Shorter on average" doesn't mean "there are no large people in Japan".

http://en.wikipedia....round_the_world


Yeah but the large people seem to collect in Judo dojos!
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#18 User is offline   bythesea 

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 07:29 PM

View PostPointyShinyBurning, on 08 February 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

"Shorter on average" doesn't mean "there are no large people in Japan".

http://en.wikipedia....round_the_world


I wasn't suggesting that Japanese people aren't shorter on average than say Danes. I was just suggesting that there are PLENTY of what we would call 'tall' people in Japan. Anyway, I think we're not far off.
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#19 User is offline   JoshuaResnick 

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 08:19 PM

View Postvfbsilva, on 08 February 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

Joshua... Still ranting, man I'm not saying that japanese judoka are not strong. Nor that they are not into weight training. They just dont do so much weight as the russians for instance or the germans. Guys from the german national team would do judo about 14 hours week and other hours would be complemented at gym/run/swin/bjj. In japan mat hours are much longer. I'm not stating it does not work it is a different way to play the game. Do you understand now? About gi burns I've mine, also have broken fingers, a broken ear and time enough in judo to realize you dont understand it enough hence you are so mad.


not mad. not ranting. simply disagreeing with you on some points... you are right in that there are other countries that spend more time in the weight room than the Japanese. all the same, are the Russians and the Germans the best in the world right now? no, the French are-- and specifically one Frenchman. It would seem to me that by your argument, those additional 14+ hours in the weight room are not panning out so well for the Russians and Germans right now either. So, why do them?

Now... As to why the Japanese are not "winning" is simple... They have always had competition at the heavy weights. Go back to 1964 and into the 80's and 90's and 00's and now today.. There is always a challenger at the heavy weights. Now, when the Japanese did have a guy who could win it all-- Endo, Saito, Yamashita, Shinohara, Inoue-- they usually won it more than once. But, lets look at this honestly-- there have been many Europeans who mounted a very strong challenge to the Japanese here. Douillet, Riner, various Russians and Georgians, the Dutch, even a Chechen-Turk and a few Brazilians and Cubans...

It remains today, and always had been, a division where Japanese dominance is most easily challenged-- regardless of rules, training methods or anything else. Now, for me, the real question is why.

First, the Japanese had far less competition during the years of the USSR. They had to contend with 1 or two guys from that region of the world and only contend with them every once in awhile. There was no world or regional circuit to qualify for anything. Yamashita's odds on doing what he did in today's Judo world would be all but nil. Judo was also far less popular then compared to now.

Second, by percentage of the population, there is a very real truth to the idea that other countries have far more people of substantial size whereas Japan has some, but not as many. Thus, finding somebody built like Riner in France is difficult enough, but finding that person in Japan is even more rare!

Thus, what keeps Japan near the top in the upper weights is the fact that Japan actually has a very large population for the geographic size.
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#20 User is offline   bythesea 

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 08:59 PM

View PostJoshuaResnick, on 08 February 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

Thus, finding somebody built like Riner in France is difficult enough, but finding that person in Japan is even more rare!


PointyShinyBurning, this is a nice middle ground between what you and I are saying. I realize now you didn't really mean to imply it, but I just wanted to dispel the idea that Japan is filled with tiny people. Yeah, it's not Denmark, but as a short person, I still felt short in Japan like anywhere else, lol. But, what joshuaresnick is saying I think is communicating your point well.

This post has been edited by bythesea: 08 February 2012 - 09:04 PM

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#21 User is offline   judoka_uk 

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 10:19 PM

View PostPointyShinyBurning, on 08 February 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

"Shorter on average" doesn't mean "there are no large people in Japan".

http://en.wikipedia....round_the_world


Quote

The average height for each sex within a population varies significantly, with men being (on average) taller than women. Women ordinarily reach their greatest height at a younger age than men, because pubedgoih ighdshsdhkv hdiuhfih keuid sdshiusdhfdsiu hg ight for one sex in a particular ethnic group follows more or less a normal distribution.

Lol, what?
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#22 User is offline   PointyShinyBurning 

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 11:11 PM

View Postjudoka_uk, on 08 February 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

Lol, what?
Wikipedia, my friend, Wikipedia. Random vandalism is a problem, I've reverted it now.
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#23 User is offline   judoka_uk 

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 11:37 PM

View PostPointyShinyBurning, on 08 February 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

Wikipedia, my friend, Wikipedia. Random vandalism is a problem, I've reverted it now.

Yeh I know, I remember back in school people making wikipedia pages to back up wikipedia references about an English teacher being a champion Soviet bear wrestler. But that was so nonsensical and random it didn't seem like decent trolling. It was weird that only that sentence was defaced and garbled.
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#24 User is offline   UK_Noire 

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 02:37 AM

View Postjudoka_uk, on 08 February 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

Their notable Judoka tend to be fairly big though.

Yamashita 5ft 11, 127kg
Naoya Ogawa 6ft 4, 115kg
Satoshi Ishii, 5ft 11, 93kg
Keiji Suzuki, 6ft, 105kg
Takamasa Anai 6ft 1, 100kg
Daiki Kamikawa 6ft, 140kg
Kazuhiko Takahashi 6ft 1, 127kg
Takashi Ono, 5ft 11, 90kg
Kosei Inoue 6ft, 100kg
Shinichi Shinohara 6ft 3, 135kg

I mean people like Muneta at 5ft 5 and 130kg are notable as a small Japanese heavyweight, because most of their heavyweight players are fairly large.


i am fairly sure inoue was taller than 6 foot. i was fortunate enough to randori with him a few years ago, and i would have said he was a similar height to me (6'4). maybe i was just star struck? :rolleyes:
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#25 User is offline   Tsurumaki 

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 02:56 AM

View PostUK_Noire, on 09 February 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

i am fairly sure inoue was taller than 6 foot. i was fortunate enough to randori with him a few years ago, and i would have said he was a similar height to me (6'4). maybe i was just star struck? :rolleyes:


No, 6 foot or just a bit over sounds about right.
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#26 User is offline   Francois 

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 04:23 AM

View PostUK_Noire, on 08 February 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

i am fairly sure inoue was taller than 6 foot. i was fortunate enough to randori with him a few years ago, and i would have said he was a similar height to me (6'4). maybe i was just star struck? :rolleyes:

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#27 User is offline   judoratt 

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 05:22 AM

View PostUK_Noire, on 08 February 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

i am fairly sure inoue was taller than 6 foot. i was fortunate enough to randori with him a few years ago, and i would have said he was a similar height to me (6'4). maybe i was just star struck? :rolleyes:

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#28 User is offline   xjej 

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 05:59 AM

For getting the results they get in terms of athletical results japanese players must have some secret.
Hard to figure how they doin way less training outside the mat and still getting results that are totally comparable.
Beside this, I do beliueve Joshua did not ment that Japan is populaed bu tiny people.
With Ryner is not just a matter of height but also about genetic.
As I was trying to say somewhere else ( and thx god in this topic Joshua confirming ) heavyweight category probably became more competitive and for once japan is probably not expressing their best in that category. I guess such up and downs can happen for any country.
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#29 User is offline   vfbsilva 

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 01:10 AM

View Postjudoka_uk, on 08 February 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

Their notable Judoka tend to be fairly big though.

Yamashita 5ft 11, 127kg
Naoya Ogawa 6ft 4, 115kg
Satoshi Ishii, 5ft 11, 93kg
Keiji Suzuki, 6ft, 105kg
Takamasa Anai 6ft 1, 100kg
Daiki Kamikawa 6ft, 140kg
Kazuhiko Takahashi 6ft 1, 127kg
Takashi Ono, 5ft 11, 90kg
Kosei Inoue 6ft, 100kg
Shinichi Shinohara 6ft 3, 135kg

I mean people like Muneta at 5ft 5 and 130kg are notable as a small Japanese heavyweight, because most of their heavyweight players are fairly large.

Rinner has 140 kg, Gessink had 145. Just to give some examples...
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#30 User is offline   vfbsilva 

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 01:12 AM

View Postxjej, on 09 February 2012 - 02:59 AM, said:

For getting the results they get in terms of athletical results japanese players must have some secret.
Hard to figure how they doin way less training outside the mat and still getting results that are totally comparable.
Beside this, I do beliueve Joshua did not ment that Japan is populaed bu tiny people.
With Ryner is not just a matter of height but also about genetic.
As I was trying to say somewhere else ( and thx god in this topic Joshua confirming ) heavyweight category probably became more competitive and for once japan is probably not expressing their best in that category. I guess such up and downs can happen for any country.

Easy to understand. They have MORE PEOPLE doing judo. So talent comes from a big pool of peple. For instance judo is no so popular in germany and look their results... Georgia is a small country with amazing results. THe great japanese judoka are REALLY amazing still hard work beats talent when talent does not work hard.
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