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The Japanese men's heavyweights What happened? Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   The_Harvest 

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 02:11 PM

Watching Kamikawa putting another passive performance, Haga (a very promising judoka) getting caught by his opponent due to a moment of inattention and when you take in account results from the recent years of the -100 +100 divisions. You kinda get worried about the divisions that produced us Yamashita, Inoue, sato, Shinohara, Ishii (yeah I know :rolleyes: ), Suzuki, Muneta, Endo and many more.
They don't seem to produce them the way they used to at the heavyweight classes. What changed in the recent years (aside from Riner of course) that has made them struggle so much in these two divisions which they traditionally dominate.

http://www.japantime...20111212j1.html
http://ajw.asahi.com.../AJ201109018562

This post has been edited by The_Harvest: 05 February 2012 - 02:35 PM

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Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 5:6-8
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
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#2 User is offline   vfbsilva 

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 09:14 PM

My 2 cents go for science and information. Now heavy weight fighters are MUCH more athletic. I'm not saying the japanese are not but some other countries have a more developed culture of strenght training. Also judo is more popular now. Not long ago international level judokas from many countries were not even full time athletes as they are now. Science, profissionalism, things japan had others not. Now "everyone" in the game is pro. So I expect seing more and more new faces and guys from not so famous countries.
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#3 User is offline   judogido 

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 10:18 PM

Well then ... time for another set of rule changes.
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#4 User is offline   The_Harvest 

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 10:44 PM

View Postjudogido, on 05 February 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

Well then ... time for another set of rule changes.

Why do you respond to threads or posts about the Japanese fighters with sarcastic comments?
This must be at least the second time I've seen you do that.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 5:6-8
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
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#5 User is offline   JoshuaResnick 

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 10:46 PM

ummmmmmmm. if you think the japanese do not do a ton of physical conditioning you are sadly, sadly mistaken. the japanese are as strong as anybody in the world, in any weight division, period. strength and strength trianing is 100% not the problem.

in fact, who said there is a problem in japan? why cant it just be that the rest of the world right now has caught up to japan in a few weight classes? i have an issue with there being such a pro-japanese bias from the OP... once upon a time the divisions were fairly thin. 1 guy per country per weight and not that many countries had good, solid judo programs. now, that is not the case. there are awesome judokas all across the world and in any weight on any given day you see nations taking major medals that you never have seen during the days of Yamashita or any of the other greats.

face it, even for Japan, Judo is far, far more competitive and difficult to win in than ever before.
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#6 User is offline   judogido 

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 12:02 AM

View PostThe_Harvest, on 06 February 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

Why do you respond to threads or posts about the Japanese fighters with sarcastic comments?
This must be at least the second time I've seen you do that.

Really? You have a good memory! I don't recall having done so in the past but may have done - I have a memory like a sieve. It was tongue-in-cheek - more a stab at the IJF rules change than japanese fighters. I am fairly ambivalent towards a fighter's country of origin as long as they fight with great technique and spirit so please don't imply I am some sort of anti-japanese person, I would not be doing and teaching judo if I was!
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#7 User is offline   vfbsilva 

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 01:38 AM

View PostJoshuaResnick, on 05 February 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

ummmmmmmm. if you think the japanese do not do a ton of physical conditioning you are sadly, sadly mistaken. the japanese are as strong as anybody in the world, in any weight division, period. strength and strength trianing is 100% not the problem.

in fact, who said there is a problem in japan? why cant it just be that the rest of the world right now has caught up to japan in a few weight classes? i have an issue with there being such a pro-japanese bias from the OP... once upon a time the divisions were fairly thin. 1 guy per country per weight and not that many countries had good, solid judo programs. now, that is not the case. there are awesome judokas all across the world and in any weight on any given day you see nations taking major medals that you never have seen during the days of Yamashita or any of the other greats.

face it, even for Japan, Judo is far, far more competitive and difficult to win in than ever before.

Is this rant pointed on me?
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#8 User is offline   Sylver 

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 01:49 AM

View Postvfbsilva, on 06 February 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

Is this rant pointed on me?

Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee. ;)
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#9 User is offline   vfbsilva 

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 04:05 AM

View PostSylver, on 05 February 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee. ;)

Our fellow poster ignored the important point on now EVERYBODY IS PRO.
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#10 User is offline   JoshuaResnick 

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 08:34 PM

View Postvfbsilva, on 06 February 2012 - 01:38 AM, said:

Is this rant pointed on me?


that was a rant? wow. if that's what you take as a rant, i'd hate to see how you deal with a little gi burn...

but, yea, you are right.. i did mis that part and i fully do agree with you on it.. though i disagree that japan is not as into strength training. some of the roughest non-judo training sessions i ever had were in japan. those guys do work.

This post has been edited by JoshuaResnick: 06 February 2012 - 08:37 PM

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#11 User is offline   vfbsilva 

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 12:28 PM

View PostJoshuaResnick, on 06 February 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

that was a rant? wow. if that's what you take as a rant, i'd hate to see how you deal with a little gi burn...

but, yea, you are right.. i did mis that part and i fully do agree with you on it.. though i disagree that japan is not as into strength training. some of the roughest non-judo training sessions i ever had were in japan. those guys do work.


Joshua... Still ranting, man I'm not saying that japanese judoka are not strong. Nor that they are not into weight training. They just dont do so much weight as the russians for instance or the germans. Guys from the german national team would do judo about 14 hours week and other hours would be complemented at gym/run/swin/bjj. In japan mat hours are much longer. I'm not stating it does not work it is a different way to play the game. Do you understand now? About gi burns I've mine, also have broken fingers, a broken ear and time enough in judo to realize you dont understand it enough hence you are so mad.
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#12 User is offline   PointyShinyBurning 

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 12:41 PM

The Japanese are, on average, smaller than people in a lot of other countries, especially Western Europe. The talent pool for heavyweight fighters is going to be a lot smaller and the number of similarly-sized training partners similarly impoverished. Maybe they had a sufficient advantage in technique or training methods to bridge the gap before, but now the raw statistics are poking through?
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#13 User is offline   judoka_uk 

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 01:22 PM

Their notable Judoka tend to be fairly big though.

Yamashita 5ft 11, 127kg
Naoya Ogawa 6ft 4, 115kg
Satoshi Ishii, 5ft 11, 93kg
Keiji Suzuki, 6ft, 105kg
Takamasa Anai 6ft 1, 100kg
Daiki Kamikawa 6ft, 140kg
Kazuhiko Takahashi 6ft 1, 127kg
Takashi Ono, 5ft 11, 90kg
Kosei Inoue 6ft, 100kg
Shinichi Shinohara 6ft 3, 135kg

I mean people like Muneta at 5ft 5 and 130kg are notable as a small Japanese heavyweight, because most of their heavyweight players are fairly large.
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#14 User is offline   judomarshall 

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 02:15 PM

View Postjudoka_uk, on 08 February 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

Their notable Judoka tend to be fairly big though.

Yamashita 5ft 11, 127kg
Naoya Ogawa 6ft 4, 115kg
Satoshi Ishii, 5ft 11, 93kg
Keiji Suzuki, 6ft, 105kg
Takamasa Anai 6ft 1, 100kg
Daiki Kamikawa 6ft, 140kg
Kazuhiko Takahashi 6ft 1, 127kg
Takashi Ono, 5ft 11, 90kg
Kosei Inoue 6ft, 100kg
Shinichi Shinohara 6ft 3, 135kg

I mean people like Muneta at 5ft 5 and 130kg are notable as a small Japanese heavyweight, because most of their heavyweight players are fairly large.


where did you get these weights? satoshi ishii was not 93 when he won the gold medal.
if i recall correctly, inoue was around 107 towards the end of his career?
i have a judo magazine with all the weights, but im at school now.
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#15 User is offline   bythesea 

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 04:08 PM

View PostPointyShinyBurning, on 08 February 2012 - 04:41 AM, said:

The Japanese are, on average, smaller than people in a lot of other countries, especially Western Europe. The talent pool for heavyweight fighters is going to be a lot smaller and the number of similarly-sized training partners similarly impoverished. Maybe they had a sufficient advantage in technique or training methods to bridge the gap before, but now the raw statistics are poking through?


I disagree with this. Maybe you're thinking of 1882. Have you been to Tokyo lately? I've stood next to some of the big guys on the tatami in Japan, and they are as huge as anyone else. Perhaps in the past Japanese people were shorter on average, but there are plenty of big Japanese dudes (or Asian dudes) in general. I work out with one every week.
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