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Newaza randori from the knees Worthless or worthwhile? Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   NYCNewbie 

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 10:07 AM

I'm asking because I've heard people on here sneeringly refer to starting from the knees as a complete waste of time.

Is it? If so, why? If not, why not?

And if it is- then why do we all do it that way?

This post has been edited by NYCNewbie: 29 January 2012 - 10:08 AM

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#2 User is offline   Spaceghost 

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 11:21 AM

We usually start back to back but everyone just spins onto their knees.
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#3 User is offline   secret squirrel 

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 11:25 AM

View PostNYCNewbie, on 29 January 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

I'm asking because I've heard people on here sneeringly refer to starting from the knees as a complete waste of time.

Is it? If so, why? If not, why not?

And if it is- then why do we all do it that way?


I don't think I've heard anyone say starting from the knees is a waste of time as it clearly isn't, though it's also good to practise entering newaza from other positions too. Wrestling from the knees on the other hand...
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#4 User is offline   kuma 

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 01:58 PM

Something is only a waste of time if you don't make anything out of it.
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#5 User is offline   MMcP 

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 04:33 PM

View PostSpaceghost, on 29 January 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

We usually start back to back but everyone just spins onto their knees.


And that's the way most do ...but why? As Newaza is a continuation of some throwing action it is most unlikely that the two players will be 'back to back'! Some years back I introduced (with juniors) starting Newaza from various positions head to head, side to side 'top and tail'alongside, on top, underneath etc the kids loved it , made the ground work more fun but the aim was to teach attacking from multi positions, just as you might well end up after a throwing action. It also worked with older players. Result much better spacial awareness and ability to take controlling/attacking advantage from any position.

Also later set a 'must have attacked' 1/2 sec time frame drill to speed up reactions, so avoiding the rolling about /fiddling about stuff you get in slow motion Newaza.. when it's too late his gone or Matte called.

This post has been edited by MMcP: 29 January 2012 - 04:42 PM

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#6 User is offline   BomberH 

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 04:41 PM

We do a variety of newaza randori.

1. From the throw - Throw, control (uke gatame / knee on belly) then hajime is called and tori tries to secure osaekomi or a submission.
2. Attacking the a prone player - Uke starts on their stomach or in a turtle defence. Hajime is called an tori has 30 seconds to break their defence.
3. Starting in guard (between legs) - The player on the top has to pass the other players legs and secure a hold. The player on the bottom tries to defend, roll their opponent into a hold or work a submission. Once a hold down or a submission is scored the players go back to the start position.
4. Starting in half guard (one leg trapped) - The player on top has to free their leg and secure osaekomi. The player on the bottom has to defend and perhaps try to roll their opponent into a hold. Once a hold down or a submission is scored the players go back to the start position

5. From the knees - in this randori anything can happen. However, players are encouraged to be adverturous. If a hold is secured the player with the hold then looks for a submission.

We also do katame no kata with 100% resistance. Tori applies osaekomi waza and uke tries to escape.

This post has been edited by BomberH: 29 January 2012 - 04:43 PM

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#7 User is offline   NYCNewbie 

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 06:40 PM

I remember Hedgehogey in particular saying on Bullshido that newaza randori from the knees was worse than useless- and then a few people agreeing with him. I'll try and hunt down the thread and post a link.

I seem to remember the point being that "off-balancing" someone who's on their knees- while you're on yours- is a big waste of time-- that one is better off either pulling guard or starting from mount or something like that.

Anyway, maybe I'm wrong and am mis-remembering what he said- but I could've sworn I read that.

Hedge?
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#8 User is offline   slacker 

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 07:01 PM

View PostNYCNewbie, on 29 January 2012 - 05:07 AM, said:

I'm asking because I've heard people on here sneeringly refer to starting from the knees as a complete waste of time.

Is it? If so, why? If not, why not?

And if it is- then why do we all do it that way?


This is my view:

In judo, newaza does not exist without tachiwaza and vice versa. Artificial restrictions of time aside in full judo practice one should engage in newaza either to finish off an incomplete* throw or to regain the advantage after being the recipient of an incomplete throw. This is how we do randori and how I think judo should be practiced.

This is not always possible. A certain level of technical knowledge in both phases is required in both participants before engaging in this style. I practice at a place where there is ample room and only experienced black belts so this is something we can follow. If this way is not possible either for space constraints or unequal level of practitioners then an experienced coach should be able to identify and breakdown the possible situations that arise and start practice from there ala bomberH and MMCp. Starting from the knees is also valid. There are certain situations where one party may be on the knees for a bit. But it should not be the only starting place to practice from.

* incomplete throw is defined as anything that is not a full on ippon throw.
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#9 User is offline   PtWhiteBelt 

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 10:50 AM

BJJ rolls start 99% of times either on the knees or seated. I didn't ever think it would either the development of my newaza since it's... ground game. Transitions are trained in both ne and tachiwaza so I don't see the problem.
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#10 User is offline   BomberH 

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 11:12 AM

View PostNYCNewbie, on 29 January 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

I remember Hedgehogey in particular saying on Bullshido that newaza randori from the knees was worse than useless- and then a few people agreeing with him. I'll try and hunt down the thread and post a link.

I seem to remember the point being that "off-balancing" someone who's on their knees- while you're on yours- is a big waste of time-- that one is better off either pulling guard or starting from mount or something like that.

Anyway, maybe I'm wrong and am mis-remembering what he said- but I could've sworn I read that.

Hedge?


I wouldn't take anything that Hedgehogey says as gospel. He is not an experienced BJJ or Judo coach or competitor.

Yes starting on the knees and trying to push each other over is largely a waste of time (even then once someone is pushed over there will be useful transitional work). Most people start from the knees and then move to different positions in order to gain meaningful practice. Starting from the knees is just a method of not requiring a take downs(often due to a lack of space). In BJJ most clubs ground sparring consists of specific (as I described above starting in different positions) followed by open (in which players start from the knees or seated). Same in Judo. To say that starting from the knees is worse than useless would be a sweeping generalisation. I have trained with three BJJ Mundail Black Belt Champions and have started sparring from the knees with them.
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#11 User is offline   Judo Tom 

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 01:28 PM

it is no different then standing randori... you will get out of it what both partners make of it.

turn it into a flexing contest on the knees and big whoop nothing happens.. get a guy who practices for hours on crazy takedowns from the knees and big whoop who cares..

but get two partners who know what positions each other need to work on and know how to roll and it is a great place to start.

I often go right to turtle... pull guard or push the guy to see if he wants to play guard.. then we get to doing real newaza.

i save the taio from the knees or osoto from the knees for the jerks who try to twist my fingers or stuff like that :)
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#12 User is offline   Dutch 

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 03:10 PM

and interesting video here. Warning, it is BJJ so possibly might infuriate some judo fanatics:


Bushi no nasake - the tenderness of a warrior
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#13 User is offline   judoka_uk 

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 11:49 PM

View PostNYCNewbie, on 29 January 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

I'm asking because I've heard people on here sneeringly refer to starting from the knees as a complete waste of time.

Is it? If so, why? If not, why not?

And if it is- then why do we all do it that way?

When people say don't start from the knees what they are seeking to avoid is this:

Posted Image

Two people trying to do tachiwaza style off balancing and pulling and shoving from their knees, because beginners just end up doing this when put in that situation

Posted Image

As neither beginner has the knowledge or ability to take the fight fully into newaza without spazzing or luck.

My prefered way of starting newaza is situational randori as outlined by BomberH numbers 1-4. That's the best way to do it as far as I'm concerned.
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#14 User is offline   Hedgehogey 

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 09:23 PM

View PostBomberH, on 31 January 2012 - 06:12 AM, said:

I wouldn't take anything that Hedgehogey says as gospel. He is not an experienced BJJ or Judo coach or competitor.


Your hardon for me is showing. I've competed in dozens of tournaments, judo and BJJ and i've been doing BJJ a little over seven years, getting a purple under Relson. I help in teaching at my Judo clubs and i'm one of the instructors at my BJJ club. What's your BJJ rank and experience again?

You're also misinterpreting me. I'm not saying rolling from the knees is a bad idea. I'm saying wrestling for a takedown from your knees is not just a waste of time it actually teaches bad habits. It teaches you to rely on the use of the upper body in rolling and to lean on your opponent.

This post has been edited by Hedgehogey: 01 February 2012 - 09:48 PM

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#15 User is offline   silverjudo 

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 09:59 PM

View PostHedgehogey, on 01 February 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

I'm saying wrestling for a takedown from your knees is not just a waste of time it actually teaches bad habits. It teaches you to rely on the use of the upper body in rolling and to lean on your opponent.


Because the only way to get control of someone on your knees is by pushing them? If someone leans on you then take them forward. There may be less movement available than standing, but since this applies to both people, it's still the same principles as taking someone down from standing...

The only bad thing is when you're supposed to be working on ground techniques but 2 new guys can't get that position from their tug of war....
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