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Newaza against bigger guys Rate Topic: -----

#121 User is offline   Hedgehogey 

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 12:20 PM

Quote

One thing to bear in mind is that you can't change the laws of physics, and these laws determine what is possible and what not. For example, from a biomechanical point of view the physics principle that applies to osae-komi-waza is pressure. In achieving maximal pressure, what is important ? Mass, absolute strength, and the ability to maintain that strength, thus endurance strength.


With all due respect, I disagree. I've had huge dudes who could not hold me down. And i've gone with BJJ black belts who embodied the 'empty jacket' principle with their top game and could keep me there with virtually zero effort (I am myself 173 pounds).

I think the most important single factor in maintaining top position (although the BJJ and judo definitions change because bjj awards a score for taking the back and knee on stomach position, they are otherwise identical) is the ability to shift one's weight, which is mostly a function of movement of the hips. There exists a maximal size difference at which a 'pinning' mentality/posture is effective. Once you reach that (i'm sure we could calculate exactly where it lies), you can't hold uke down there. However when you switch to 'floating', for lack of a better term, you are much more secure because you're mobile, able to respond to the different directions you're being pushed/pulled in, to slide into different positions.

You were talking about flaws in the ne waza pedagogy earlier. Another one to add to that list, I think, is the teaching of pins as static positions. This, I believe, retards (heehee) the student's development. It makes them stiffer in ne waza, and thus more easily turned. Furthermore they have a hard time using transitional submissions because they've been taught to always randori for the win, rather than to maximize their learning time. This is stressed in tachi waza but due to a lack of knowledge, forgotten in ne waza!

Quote

I once, and only once succeeded to take former -95kg Olympic champion and multiple Open class medal winner at world and European championships Van de Walle in osae-komi-waza, kuzure-kami-shihô-gatame. I was proud of myself knowing that no one ever had come out of it. I applied all the principles of jûdô perfectly, pushed my center of mass towards the tatami. Unfortunately, I weighed only 78kg instead of 95kg, and I also was not able to bench press lbs. 485. What you think happened ? He grabbed me pushed me off the floor and then stood up with me still hanging horizontally in the air. There is nothing, nothing whatsoever that jûdô-wise can be done to change the laws of physics that were at work here, nothing. On the other hand, this would not have happened if I would have been, let's say Khubuluri, who too weighed -95kg, had also a lot of maximal and endurance strength. Even if you would take someone who was not a world champion jûdô, let's say, our own Rhadi, this would never happen. However, if the difference in weight and strength is too substantial no technique can change this.


While you're right in saying that staying in kami shiho wouldn't have been able to prevent what happened to you, that doesn't mean there was nothing you could have done. Now i'm just a young whippersnapper and all but I used to be much smaller than I am now and gained a lot of experience with dudes trying to do pretty much what you described.

In order to bench press you off, he's got to extend his arms. You could have shifted your hips 90, slid your knee in and tried for an armbar. You could have brought your hips forward and up, used a knee to pin a bicep in place then slid that same knee through the gap of his arm to get a reverse triangle as you stabilize a grip on his pants that keeps him from getting his hips under him (by bringing the gripped leg toward you like a cradle). You could have skull rode him (although if he was an olympian that could be hazardous for you!). You could have swung your hips in a wide arc so as he sat up you took his back. You could have shifted like you were going for an armbar but instead slid your chest along his tricep and brought your head down to his shoulder so you ended up with a 'seatbelt' grip.

Hindsight is always 20/20, but just off the top of my head I can think of quite a few options there. So I think your example was flawed.
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#122 User is offline   danguy 

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 02:33 AM

View PostCichorei Kano, on 29 January 2012 - 03:11 AM, said:

One thing to bear in mind is that you can't change the laws of physics, and these laws determine what is possible and what not. For example, from a biomechanical point of view the physics principle that applies to osae-komi-waza is pressure. In achieving maximal pressure, what is important ? Mass, absolute strength, and the ability to maintain that strength, thus endurance strength.

View PostHedgehogey, on 24 February 2012 - 04:20 AM, said:

With all due respect, I disagree.


Here is a fight that would make a good undercard for Ronda's next MMA match; althoght this one's outcome is far more certain.

Hedgehogey Vs. The Laws Of Physics

Heck even I might be able to sell tickets to that match. I wonder in which corner GeneticJudo, budding Physicist will find himelf.


Cage match, ring, tatami or backhole? I'd vote blackhole, but then we could not see the match as light does not escape. First Einstein speed of light limit perhaps shaken, now all the laws are ar risk.

This post has been edited by danguy: 25 February 2012 - 02:37 AM

If I am doing "win," sloppy and sissy is fine; if I am doing Judo, beautiful is my rule and goal. Judo is far more important and rewarding than "win."

"What you are as a person is far more important than what you are as a basketball [Judo] player." --John Wooden 1910-2010

"You should first try to negotiate nicely but you can be strong after there's resistance, and know, just like in judo, when to catch them." --Rusty Kanokogi, 2008, on negotiating.
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#123 User is offline   7thCuil 

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 03:17 AM

View Postdanguy, on 25 February 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

Here is a fight that would make a good undercard for Ronda's next MMA match; althoght this one's outcome is far more certain.

Hedgehogey Vs. The Laws Of Physics

Heck even I might be able to sell tickets to that match. I wonder in which corner GeneticJudo, budding Physicist will find himelf.


Cage match, ring, tatami or backhole? I'd vote blackhole, but then we could not see the match as light does not escape. First Einstein speed of light limit perhaps shaken, now all the laws are ar risk.


:lol:

But, wasn't the point Hedgehogey was making more along the lines of that simply being heavy and strong isn't
the be-all and end-all in newaza? That being skillful and manoverable, and able to use what weight and strength
you have in the most efficient way possible is also a significant factor? Or am I missing something? :huh:

(From a point of view of hope for my own newaza capabilities I really hope not...)

Then again, I suppose it also depends wether the lighter person is the one pinning or being pinned. I agree that
it's logical that from the point of view of the guy or girl underneath, if you're dramaticaly outweighed by the person
pinning you then you're at a significant disadvantage whatever your skill level may be.


Thanks,

Lyss
"If I could get a grip on reality, I'd strangle it."

"Haecceity hek-see'i-tee, n (Latin, from haec, this) - The aspect of existence on which individuality depends; the hereness and nowness of reality. First coined by the philosopher Duns Scotus, haecceity is that sense one gets of being in the present tense, the pure experience of a single moment in time. No other word has such subtle connotations. In addition, it sounds and looks very interesting." From http://phrontistery.info .

"Jimmy was a chemist, now Jimmy is no more. For what he thought was H2O, was H2SO4."

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#124 User is offline   Hedgehogey 

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 04:18 AM

View PostLystra, on 24 February 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

But, wasn't the point Hedgehogey was making more along the lines of that simply being heavy and strong isn't
the be-all and end-all in newaza? That being skillful and manoverable, and able to use what weight and strength
you have in the most efficient way possible is also a significant factor? Or am I missing something? :huh:


Yep, part of my point. This is BJJ basics for a reason. The other part of it is that I believe judo's pedagogy has fostered the illusion that this is not the case.

We have a laboratory for testing this hypothesis too. Most BJJ comps have an open division and sport BJJ is 90% groundwork. And the results support my conclusion: strength is a factor, absolute size is not (an average man and a fat man of equal strength, for instance, I would give the advantage to the average man), balance is a factor, technique and heart are huge factors, and the types of strength that do matter are often not ones that result in looking good at the beach but less visible (cardio, core, lower back, hip flexors, glutes and grips).

And this holds true from the highest levels:



To the scrubbiest of the scrub leagues:



(Yep, that's me from 4-5 years ago as an anemic, skinny, nearsighted, flatfooted, vegetarian baby blue)

Quote

Then again, I suppose it also depends wether the lighter person is the one pinning or being pinned. I agree that
it's logical that from the point of view of the guy or girl underneath, if you're dramaticaly outweighed by the person
pinning you then you're at a significant disadvantage whatever your skill level may be.


From my own point of view, if it were a competition, i'd prefer to be pinned by a fat guy with bad hip movements over an average guy who good hip movement.
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#125 User is offline   WBWAndering 

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 06:34 AM

Lystra

Quote

But, wasn't the point Hedgehogey was making more along the lines of that simply being heavy and strong isn't
the be-all and end-all in newaza? That being skillful and manoverable, and able to use what weight and strength
you have in the most efficient way possible is also a significant factor? Or am I missing something?


You don't get it. Laws of physics explicitly state Danguy always wins on the ground by complete lack of humility. Despite lack of BJJ training. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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#126 User is offline   danguy 

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 06:53 AM

View PostLystra, on 24 February 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

:lol:

But, wasn't the point Hedgehogey was making more along the lines of that simply being heavy and strong isn't
the be-all and end-all in newaza? That being skillful and manoverable, and able to use what weight and strength
you have in the most efficient way possible is also a significant factor? Or am I missing something? :huh:

Thanks,

Lyss


CK has posted 9 times in this thread using thousands of words. In his summation he said that at a point where strength and technique are maximal, then laws of physics rule. There is an upper limit of work a muscle and lever (bone) can do. It matters not if that work can lift one pound or one ton, if the weight it is asked to raise is greater than the limit, argument over; be it exceeded by an ounce or a 1000 kilos. All the wiggle round HH used was well covered by CK in prior posts. HH brings in an example or two where the strength and techniques are NOT maximal.

But that said, anyone who can so easily explain how to b!tch-slap Van de Walle deserves to be left alone. :blink:

One teaching of newaza is to point out that tori is weakest when moving (transitioning) from one technique to another. It is at that time escape and counter openings arise much more frequently as compared to maintaining correct position with minor adjustments.



I don't know if you know much about Van de Walle, but I will put it a summary that is the only measure some (not to say that's you) respect:
  • First to Compete in five (5) Olympics, 1976-1992 earning a gold (1980) and bronze (1988).
  • Earned two (2) silvers and five (5) bronze in the World Champions ship which we held every other year, unlike today.
  • Earned three (3) gold, five (5) sliver and nine (9) bronze in the European Championships.
  • Was soundly B-slapped in 1981 by Yamashita, perhaps HH was coaching him. ;wry)
  • Considered one of the physically strongest judoka to have competed.

If I am doing "win," sloppy and sissy is fine; if I am doing Judo, beautiful is my rule and goal. Judo is far more important and rewarding than "win."

"What you are as a person is far more important than what you are as a basketball [Judo] player." --John Wooden 1910-2010

"You should first try to negotiate nicely but you can be strong after there's resistance, and know, just like in judo, when to catch them." --Rusty Kanokogi, 2008, on negotiating.
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#127 User is offline   stacey 

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 07:15 AM

I'm feeling incredibly suicidal, or something, so I'm going to throw my hat in this ring.

CK's posts are great, and address many of the questions you guys with lots of ground experience have, especially as it relates to judo.

But, all the video and names and belts aside, there's the OP's question to answer. And, that's the question I'm going to answer. My understanding is the OP is playing with similarly experienced people who greatly outweigh him. Learning techniques from video and trying them out at the dojo on other novices is not a really great idea, at least without running those techniques by your sensei/instructor first.

When I first started out, I was the only chick in the class. Worse, the next lightest person was this guy, Dennis, who had 50 lbs on me. They increased in size by about 20 lbs from there, up to and including a former pro wrestler (dude was so big, I kid you not, I could not wrap may arms around his neck for hadaka jime, and my knees were about 6 inches off the ground in tateshiho gatame - yeah, that big). Here's what my instructor said to me:

1. live toes. Never put the tops of your feet against the mat as you're giving up a lot of your strength and ability to use your feet when you do.

2. Wear them out. You're never going to be stronger than those guys, so you have to play to your advantage. That means picking and choosing when, where, and how to use your strength. The rest of the time, frustrate them.

3. If you don't want to move, relax - it's much more difficult to move something that's completely limp than something that's rigid. If you want to move, you're going to have to get rigid. The same applies to your opponent - if you want him to move, make sure he's not limp.

4. remember to breathe. remember you need to breathe. That means you can be on the bottom with some guys, but sometimes the weight differential is so substantial that you cannot be on the bottom. Figure out where your threshold is and then don't pull guard with somebody who weighs more than that limit.

5. your arms are never going to be stronger than their arms, but your legs are almost always stronger than their arms. Use them.

Keep training and working. Keep failing - failures will teach you more than you know. Risk - it's the best way to learn in context, and since we're talking the dojo, it's the perfect place to learn. Remember, there's more than size, strength, and technique - use your head. Do that, and your newaza will improve faster than the big guys relying on their size and strength.
Disclaimer


Please note, the above provided information does not constitute legal advice but is written for entertainment purposes only. The author is not responsible should you pursue any of the above, and by reading the above, you agree to hold the author, the forum, and any and all other entity including but not limited to God harmless for any damage, monetary or otherwise, caused by your pursuit. Yadda Yadda....
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#128 User is offline   WBWAndering 

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 08:37 AM

Danguy, your post is full of assumptions. You don't know the level of newaza skill of Mr. Van de Walle. We just know that CK,
who was never a newaza specialist, and probably past competition years, got roughed up by him on the ground. Satoshi Ishii is an Olympic Judo champion, and they gave him a brown belt in BJJ when he started. Not that impressive by elite BJJ standards. Certainly not the maximal technical point. Hedgehogey isn't claiming he could beat Van de Walle. He is saying that problems on the ground can be solved with superior technique and just because you failed once doesn't mean you'll always fail when confronted with the same problem. You are advocating an attitude that is plain defeatist for everyone reading the thread. <_<
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#129 User is offline   7thCuil 

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 08:53 AM

View Postdanguy, on 25 February 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

CK has posted 9 times in this thread using thousands of words. In his summation he said that at a point where strength and technique are maximal, then laws of physics rule. There is an upper limit of work a muscle and lever (bone) can do. It matters not if that work can lift one pound or one ton, if the weight it is asked to raise is greater than the limit, argument over; be it exceeded by an ounce or a 1000 kilos. All the wiggle round HH used was well covered by CK in prior posts. HH brings in an example or two where the strength and techniques are NOT maximal.

But that said, anyone who can so easily explain how to b!tch-slap Van de Walle deserves to be left alone. :blink:

One teaching of newaza is to point out that tori is weakest when moving (transitioning) from one technique to another. It is at that time escape and counter openings arise much more frequently as compared to maintaining correct position with minor adjustments.



I don't know if you know much about Van de Walle, but I will put it a summary that is the only measure some (not to say that's you) respect:
  • First to Compete in five (5) Olympics, 1976-1992 earning a gold (1980) and bronze (1988).
  • Earned two (2) silvers and five (5) bronze in the World Champions ship which we held every other year, unlike today.
  • Earned three (3) gold, five (5) sliver and nine (9) bronze in the European Championships.
  • Was soundly B-slapped in 1981 by Yamashita, perhaps HH was coaching him. ;wry)
  • Considered one of the physically strongest judoka to have competed.



Fair enough. I don't disagree.

By the way, I intended no disrespect or offence to anyone, I assure you.

Perhaps I don't think before I post as much as I probably should- for that, I appologise.

This post has been edited by Lystra: 25 February 2012 - 09:04 AM

"If I could get a grip on reality, I'd strangle it."

"Haecceity hek-see'i-tee, n (Latin, from haec, this) - The aspect of existence on which individuality depends; the hereness and nowness of reality. First coined by the philosopher Duns Scotus, haecceity is that sense one gets of being in the present tense, the pure experience of a single moment in time. No other word has such subtle connotations. In addition, it sounds and looks very interesting." From http://phrontistery.info .

"Jimmy was a chemist, now Jimmy is no more. For what he thought was H2O, was H2SO4."

"Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur."

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#130 User is offline   danguy 

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 09:39 AM

View PostWBWAndering, on 25 February 2012 - 12:37 AM, said:

Danguy, your post is full of assumptions. You don't know the level of newaza skill of Mr. Van de Walle. We just know that CK,
who was never a newaza specialist, and probably past competition years, got roughed up by him on the ground. Satoshi Ishii is an Olympic Judo champion, and they gave him a brown belt in BJJ when he started. Not that impressive by elite BJJ standards. Certainly not the maximal technical point. Hedgehogey isn't claiming he could beat Van de Walle. He is saying that problems on the ground can be solved with superior technique and just because you failed once doesn't mean you'll always fail when confronted with the same problem. You are advocating an attitude that is plain defeatist for everyone reading the thread. <_<

I will be short and simple, with all due respect, you have no understanding of the level of newaza in the 1977-1986 range of competition shiai. Nothing I or anyone else will say to you will change that. That said, every bjjer who I have started to break a rib on just whines. But I am only efficiently applying force in a small concentrated area. Or the necks I could fracture when you are stacked, that gets their attention as well. There is dojo newaza and there is high level shiai newaza and there is street fight newaza. I know them all and play within the rules which apply. Some day you may too, but I am sorry to say it is doubtful you or HH will sample high level shiai newaza skills. I am not proud of the ribs, shoulders or elbows I injured, nor was it personal, it was just the business of shiai and many, many 1000s of hours of work.

BTW, I don't find elite bjj standards that impressive. It is a game. Lets see bjj stop a bullet, or stronger weapon. Trust me it won't and that make most of the bjj is better or worse than (fill in the blank) pointless I think.


:hap:

PS you forgot to mention Yamashita did not win with newaza on VDW. Isn't that further proof judo newaza sucks? -_-

This post has been edited by danguy: 25 February 2012 - 09:45 AM

If I am doing "win," sloppy and sissy is fine; if I am doing Judo, beautiful is my rule and goal. Judo is far more important and rewarding than "win."

"What you are as a person is far more important than what you are as a basketball [Judo] player." --John Wooden 1910-2010

"You should first try to negotiate nicely but you can be strong after there's resistance, and know, just like in judo, when to catch them." --Rusty Kanokogi, 2008, on negotiating.
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#131 User is offline   danguy 

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 09:42 AM

View PostLystra, on 25 February 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:

Fair enough. I don't disagree.

By the way, I intended no disrespect or offence to anyone, I assure you.

Perhaps I don't think before I post as much as I probably should- for that, I appologise.

Ck can get wordy and it can be work to wade through, but generally productive work. ;wry) No offense felt no apology necessary. :hap: But the HH takes on the laws of physics was just too great of an opening to pass up. :big grin:

This post has been edited by danguy: 25 February 2012 - 09:43 AM

If I am doing "win," sloppy and sissy is fine; if I am doing Judo, beautiful is my rule and goal. Judo is far more important and rewarding than "win."

"What you are as a person is far more important than what you are as a basketball [Judo] player." --John Wooden 1910-2010

"You should first try to negotiate nicely but you can be strong after there's resistance, and know, just like in judo, when to catch them." --Rusty Kanokogi, 2008, on negotiating.
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#132 User is offline   Hedgehogey 

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 10:25 AM

View Postdanguy, on 25 February 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

I will be short and simple, with all due respect, you have no understanding of the level of newaza in the 1977-1986 range of competition shiai.


With all due respect, I do. With all due respect, don't make assumptions. With all due respect, if you're going to be condescending, adding with all due respect to the front of it doesn't change that very much.

Quote

Nothing I or anyone else will say to you will change that. That said, every bjjer who I have started to break a rib on just whines.


Watch out we got a badass in here.

Quote

But I am only efficiently applying force in a small concentrated area. Or the necks I could fracture when you are stacked, that gets their attention as well. There is dojo newaza and there is high level shiai newaza and there is street fight newaza. I know them all and play within the rules which apply. Some day you may too, but I am sorry to say it is doubtful you or HH will sample high level shiai newaza skills. I am not proud of the ribs, shoulders or elbows I injured, nor was it personal, it was just the business of shiai and many, many 1000s of hours of work.

BTW, I don't find elite bjj standards that impressive. It is a game. Lets see bjj stop a bullet, or stronger weapon.
Trust me it won't and that make most of the bjj is better or worse than (fill in the blank) pointless I think.


I can't even. What. What is this argument. You went from the prison fight scene in Riki Oh to YEAH SUCKA WHO WANTS TO TRIANGLE CHOKE A BULLET.

You have no idea what the hell you're talking about and just put on a trenchcoat and started walking around while nu metal plays, didn't you?
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#133 User is offline   fozzit 

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 05:09 PM

ahh the bigotry continues...
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#134 User is offline   WBWAndering 

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 05:54 PM

Good grief. You hold back in order not to injure people? Or you like to fight dirty? Sounds like both. Whoopee. Get over yourself, Danguy. There are plenty of little elite BJJ guys out there who could handle you with minimal effort. They just need advanced warning about your rib-breaking fetish, and they'll finish you before you put them in any danger. Don't think you are the only one who can break bones before the tap. Generally, though, injuring your training partners should get you kicked out of whatever club you train at, even before somebody returns you the favor.
As for stopping a bullet with jujitsu... Wow, you actually made that argument. You must be silly. :wub:
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#135 User is offline   danguy 

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 09:19 PM

View PostHedgehogey, on 25 February 2012 - 02:25 AM, said:

With all due respect, I do. With all due respect, don't make assumptions. With all due respect, if you're going to be condescending, adding with all due respect to the front of it doesn't change that very much.

Look, you don't list a birth date in your profile. However, you are brave enough to post RECENT videos of yourself. Thus, you clearly are not of a current age nor rank to have bowed into high level shiai during 1977-the late 1980's. Therefore with no disrespect intended, I can state you have no first hand knowledge of the level of the newaza then at the high level shiai. Nor do you have experience with the level of newaza practiced at top Judo competitive programs of the era. 50% newaza was the norm. And let me tell you there were some top, top newaza specialist out there. If they lost it was because the way to defeat them was to stay off the mat and get a tachiwaza ippon or even better newaza specialist just beat them on the mat if necessary.

Hearing folks talk or watching video in no way describes what the level was. I am a rare bird in that I experienced that level then and today as well as time in between. Newaza today is far from what it was then both in shiai and in many dojo's practice schedule.

Lastly as has been mentioned on this forum a few times, the rule regarding and the interpretation of the rules regarding arm bar from a standing position favor uke and penalize tori now unlike then. This change alone is greatly responsible for the development of my many cross or unorthodox grips seen today. The rule change was done for safety, but the odd grips of today was one of the unintended consequences. More later, I need to run some errands....


:hap:

This post has been edited by danguy: 26 February 2012 - 11:13 AM

If I am doing "win," sloppy and sissy is fine; if I am doing Judo, beautiful is my rule and goal. Judo is far more important and rewarding than "win."

"What you are as a person is far more important than what you are as a basketball [Judo] player." --John Wooden 1910-2010

"You should first try to negotiate nicely but you can be strong after there's resistance, and know, just like in judo, when to catch them." --Rusty Kanokogi, 2008, on negotiating.
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