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Newaza against bigger guys Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Spaceghost 

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 05:35 PM

Hi,

I weigh around 60kg so I am one of the lightest males in my club, I struggle against bigger guys (30-50 kg heavier than me) as they can use their strength and size against me. I usually end up getting laid upon and it's rather hard to escape.

How much can superior technique make up for the size difference? In reality we are probably around the same skill level but it just can become a bit disheartening to not make much progress. I wonder if I will ever be able to beat them if we stay at the same skill level but they are always significantly heavier than me? I get really tired doing newaza randori due to the difference in size, I feel as if my instincts kick in and I use more strength against them. On the rare occasion I practice against someone who is the same size, it's almost like a holiday for me, I can take it much easier and try to focus on techniques rather than thrashing around to escape.
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#2 User is offline   Patrol 

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 06:04 PM

Hey Spaceghost!

I can completely understand you as I am one of the smaller guys myself (about 65kg) and doing randori with someone of my size is a rare occasion. From my experience, size plays a very important role in newaza and what you described happens to be true in my case as well, meaning that I get overpowered and most of the time I just get laid upon, my opponent waits till my power is drained and then they tap me whichever way they want. I've been doing some newaza randori with a couple of my friends for the past few weekends and despite them being heavier (about 90kg) I managed to submit one of them twice. I won't lie, I got submitted about 5 as many times, but still it shows that it IS possible.

Besides like I said - I'm talking from MY experience, and I'm just a 4 kyu judoka. There is plenty of room for me to improve. When we record our randori and I watch it later I see lots of situations where I did some mistake that was taken advantage of. A mistake that could have been avoided had my technique been better. The frustrating thing is, when a heavier opponent makes a mistake, they will just use their strength to even it up. In my case, a mistake usually cannot be repaired, certainly not by brute force. However, the best we (little guys) can do is just learn more judo and try to make no mistakes - it's a luxury we simply cannot afford, but we're striving towards perfection anyway right? :hap:

I lack examples from judo, but think of Royce Gracie in early MMA days - he managed to submit bigger opponents than him (i.e. Kimo Leopoldo) through superior technique. Those guys weren't beginners either. True, they may have not been exposed to much newaza in their careers, but they were combat athletes. They knew how to fight and were conditioned towards it. Besides, Royce managed to submit them when they had no gi. I thought it made no difference, but I did randori just today (good timing on your post :big grin:) with a beginner who wasn't wearing a gi (I was) and the outcome was a draw. The only reason for it being a draw however, was that he knew NO submitting techniques. He just knew that he had to be on top of me (he succeeded), but then he was clueless about what to do. I managed to sweep him a couple of times, but so did he. I didn't know what to grip, how to grip it etc. So coming back to the example I gave you - Royce managed to submit bigger guys who had no gi on. I think we both have A LOT room to improve so have faith in your training and most of all - have fun!

And if all else fails, think about the girls who have to do randori with guys. Now THAT's a problematic situation :P

Perhaps other judoka here can give you examples from judo where a small guy managed to submit a bigger guy in randori / shiai.
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#3 User is offline   WBWAndering 

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 06:43 PM

It is possible to overcome an advantage of thirty-fifty kg with superior technique. You need maybe one or two years of BJJ experience advantage on them, to submit them in club randori. Maybe a little more than that to win against them in a tournament. Since you are asking about newaza, you should know that in a BJJ club you will learn it at a faster rate per lesson. In a judo class I'd give it three to five years, if you really concentrate on newaza and they neglect it.

However, you want something you can use right away? I was in the same boat, once upon a time. So here is some advice on the method (strategy) to use, regardless of where you choose to learn it.

Learn chokes from the back. Rear naked choke, bow and arrow choke and maybe one of the other collar chokes.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Lr3I3Rvrtr0
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=AZP9ItWRzTA

Then you need a way to take the back. Do something judo guys (at least beginners) don't expect. Pull guard. You are not likely to outwrestle them on the knees, so use ju. That's what judo is about, supposedly, but you see the guard more in BJJ. You can learn some submissions from the guard and they work, but that's not the point here. The point is for you to take their backs, so you can choke them with the techniques I linked to above. So, what you do is you take their back from guard. Here are a few ways:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=0Pc-gS9IA04
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=aWs63-ghiVY
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=dAj4leII7k0
Also, a cross overhook leads directly to the back, although I couldn't find a video for it. You can kinda see what I mean from this video, although I don't think it shows the actual back take: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=LtNma14j9qI

Next comes the hard part. This is where most of the difficulty is at.
At first you are either going to get choked from your guard, or have your guard passed. Once they pass your guard, they will try to pin and/or submit you.

So you need to develop defense. Escapes. Defending chokes from inside your own guard usually comes down to control. You have to get control (my favorite is an overhook) when the other guy is inside your guard. No chokes against you from that position at all.
Next, what do you do once your guard gets passed? Well it's gonna happen, and it's too early for you to develop guard pass counters before you learn how to fight from closed guard, open guard and pass against those same positions. So, what you do is you escape sidemount (the pin) as they get settled in. Here are the relevant videos.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=rVDPXg-Aswk
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=I3clyVNfjXg
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=0okJVgqE99A
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=ngZPGQ1G3e0
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=G89T-SVVY5M
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=VrxJlBLRv-w

Now, it's going to take you a few months to go over even half of that. However, I think I've covered the basic (read: main, obviou, most effective) strategy for a beating someone more than a hundred pounds heavier. This is what I do when I seriously try to tap out someone twice my size regardless of their experience. Is this the only way? No, of course not. I've submitted guys close to three hundred pounds with the armbar from mount and I weighed 145lbs at the time. Every basic submission you learn in the beginning at a good club with competent teachers works. You just need to know a lot about it for it to be effective when YOU apply it. Much more than what you learn the first time the move is shown to you, much, much, much more. It is entirely possible to submit with the paintbrush (ude-garami) or cross collar choke from any position. I'm just advising on the safer and higher percentage way of accomplishing the goal. Focus on this, borrow a partner before or after class, but also learn the other moves taught in class and try them out. Good luck, I hope you have a good journey in this rough sport! Let us know how it goes. :big grin:

This post has been edited by WBWAndering: 28 January 2012 - 06:50 PM

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#4 User is offline   BomberH 

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 06:48 PM

In my own opinion being small is less of a disadvantage on the floor. Good fundamentals are the key. Whether you can learn good fundamentals is down to your instructor. Some judo instructors are excellent all rounders. Some are strong at teaching tachi waza (standing) but have weak newaza (ground work). In such cases sometimes it is easier to improve your newaza by seeking tuition from a Brazilian Jiujitsu instructor.
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#5 User is offline   medo 

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 07:45 PM

Yep had this challenge most of my Judoka days, with continued practice you will develop when and how to turn on your strength. A floppy rag doll is harder to control than someone with all muscles switched on , you need sharp short bursts and agility to get you out of trouble. Go with the rolls don’t resist, you will learn instinctively when to snap out that arm twist and turn.

Personally I would lay belly flat rather than curl up in a ball you will feel what the heavier players going to do gives you some scope to go with them, or scoop up a stray arm or slip a forearm in when they try to turn you. Use your arms to gather or gain distance and learn to slip out of your our jacket if needed. Your legs and feet need to be strong to grab and hold, train to make them useful at gathering legs make them work as well as your hands do.

But saying this if your partner can lift you off the floor and hold you there when you have them in Kesagatame “forget it” You won’t learn anything but pain from them.

Pete

This post has been edited by medo: 28 January 2012 - 08:00 PM

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#6 User is offline   Y-Chromosome 

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 08:12 PM

I handle bigger guys in ne waza much more easily than standing. I have had no formal training in BJJ but many years of judo ne waza randori with some quality partners.

First off.. USE YOUR LEGS. You will never beat a stronger and heavier opponent with arm strength. This means always placing yourself so you your legs can come into play, either by providing the drive behind an attacking moetion or to help hold the opponent when defending.

People who get owned in randori make two common errors.
1. They give up their side. By this I mean when pushed bach or turned they fall and let let their legs go past the opponent so the openent achieves a kesa or yoko-shiho type position. At this point bit is very difficult to recover. When pushed down by superior strength learn to bring you knees into your chest, shift slightly and re-extend around the opponents hips. (IOW establish guard) With practice this becomes second nature and it becomes near impossibloe for even quality opponents to get straight past your legs without a struggle.
2. They give up their back. Turtling or lying on the stomach is tempting when you feel overpowered but ultimately is it counter-productive to the contest at hand and to your training long term. What you can do/learn is limited to what you can achieve by continuing to face your opponent.

When starting face to face on the knees, keep a wide base and work the angles. Don't fight from a straight position. Move your body and find weak angles to turn your opponent. If he does topple, move decisively past his legs. (Corrolary of above) If he defends with his legs learn to use your elbows to shift them aside while keeping control with your hands. If you topple bring your legs into play before you even reach the mat. Start thinking about where your legs will go as soon as you feel you may lose balance. If you can't get the hips, at least snag a leg. If you get neither, shrimp, push and take one.

It takes a lot of practice but believe me when I say that beating the big guys in ne waza is not only feasible, but for some people, much easier than in tachi waza. What's more it can all be learned in garden vareity judo class.

If you really want to improve, pick a partner who challenges but doesn't overwhelm you. Invite them to do ne-waza randori for 5-10 minutes before or after class.... and stay off your stomach.
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#7 User is offline   medo 

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 08:51 PM

Please bare in mind that the "guard" position is not a good position for a light player against a heavy player to be in, thats either back down or kneeling, in a contest you should be able to prevail until matte is called but in randori you don't have that option.

My strategy for heavy players was back out, belly down see what turn over/armlock/strangle angle he goes for and move appropriately. When you have some heavy putting their full weight into tsurikomijime its not pleasant and when they manage to break your legs around them and put a knee straight into your thigh muscle or manhood with 100kg behind them it ain't cricket.

Just what are you going to do yourself in "guard" armock this heavy guy, strangle this guy, NO CHANCE you may be able to pass his legs if he has not been a Judoka for long but even with speed a bit of strength and skill you won't get past many experienced dan grade legs, while trying you will be flipped and held.

Please be careful of advice from inexperienced wanderers. :lol:

Pete
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#8 User is offline   medo 

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 09:11 PM

View PostY-Chromosome, on 28 January 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

I handle bigger guys in ne waza much more easily than standing. I have had no formal training in BJJ but many years of judo ne waza randori with some quality partners.

First off.. USE YOUR LEGS. You will never beat a stronger and heavier opponent with arm strength. This means always placing yourself so you your legs can come into play, either by providing the drive behind an attacking moetion or to help hold the opponent when defending.

People who get owned in randori make two common errors.
1. They give up their side. By this I mean when pushed bach or turned they fall and let let their legs go past the opponent so the openent achieves a kesa or yoko-shiho type position. At this point bit is very difficult to recover. When pushed down by superior strength learn to bring you knees into your chest, shift slightly and re-extend around the opponents hips. (IOW establish guard) With practice this becomes second nature and it becomes near impossibloe for even quality opponents to get straight past your legs without a struggle.
2. They give up their back. Turtling or lying on the stomach is tempting when you feel overpowered but ultimately is it counter-productive to the contest at hand and to your training long term. What you can do/learn is limited to what you can achieve by continuing to face your opponent.

When starting face to face on the knees, keep a wide base and work the angles. Don't fight from a straight position. Move your body and find weak angles to turn your opponent. If he does topple, move decisively past his legs. (Corrolary of above) If he defends with his legs learn to use your elbows to shift them aside while keeping control with your hands. If you topple bring your legs into play before you even reach the mat. Start thinking about where your legs will go as soon as you feel you may lose balance. If you can't get the hips, at least snag a leg. If you get neither, shrimp, push and take one.

It takes a lot of practice but believe me when I say that beating the big guys in ne waza is not only feasible, but for some people, much easier than in tachi waza. What's more it can all be learned in garden vareity judo class.

If you really want to improve, pick a partner who challenges but doesn't overwhelm you. Invite them to do ne-waza randori for 5-10 minutes before or after class.... and stay off your stomach.

Great advice here but I can guarantee in a 5/10 minute newaza randori against a heavy player as lightweight you will spend sometime on all fours or stomach I just learnt to fight from underneath with good success enough to be confident against other dan grades.
I took a lot of drilling to get a defense, and turn a sangaku attack to a possitive for me from this position though :hap: .

This post has been edited by medo: 28 January 2012 - 10:42 PM

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#9 User is offline   WBWAndering 

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 09:15 PM

Medo
Your problem is that you know a little bit, but think you know everything. I'm far more competent than you in anything concerning newaza. Stop making a fool of yourself, plz. <_<

Armbarring, collar choking or triangling from guard guys 200-240 lbs is too easy if they have less than two years of BJJ experience. That's why I let them put me in bad position and practice my escapes. They would not get past my guard if I didn't let them. That's basically why guard pass counters exist, but I don't think you even know what that is at your level of "skill". Once upon a time a coach was very upset with me for submitting a 285 pounder repeatedly from my closed guard, when he wanted me to sweep instead. At the time I saw no point in changing position before going for the submission, so I just finished from the position I got automatically. He was right in that I should be able to do more than just triangle/armbar from guard. Now, I'll more often try to change position (take the back or mount), then submit. Some idiots think they have the advantage because I'm playing guard. That's not true, but a submission doesn't always demonstrate it sufficiently for some people. Putting them on their back or taking their back from closed guard gets the point across. The advice I gave in this thread will serve you well if you follow it. ;wry)
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#10 User is offline   medo 

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 09:38 PM

View PostWBWAndering, on 28 January 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

Medo
Your problem is that you know a little bit, but think you know everything. I'm far more competent than you in anything concerning newaza. Stop making a fool of yourself, plz. <_<

Armbarring, collar choking or triangling from guard guys 200-240 lbs is too easy if they have less than two years of BJJ experience. That's why I let them put me in bad position and practice my escapes. They would not get past my guard if I didn't let them. That's basically why guard pass counters exist, but I don't think you even know what that is at your level of "skill". Once upon a time a coach was very upset with me for submitting a 285 pounder repeatedly from my closed guard, when he wanted me to sweep instead. At the time I saw no point in changing position before going for the submission, so I just finished from the position I got automatically. He was right in that I should be able to do more than just triangle/armbar from guard. Now, I'll more often try to change position (take the back or mount), then submit. Some idiots think they have the advantage because I'm playing guard. That's not true, but a submission doesn't always demonstrate it sufficiently for some people. Putting them on their back or taking their back from closed guard gets the point across. The advice I gave in this thread will serve you well if you follow it. ;wry)

Oh dear silly me got forgot it was a BJJ forum knew you would bite :wub:
Did you forget you posted your skill level for all to see :lol:
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#11 User is offline   WBWAndering 

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 09:39 PM

Medo

Quote

Oh dear silly me got forgot it was a BJJ forum knew you would bite
Did you forget you posted your skill level for all to see

Now all that's left is for you to do the same, buddy. Post a video of yourself doing newaza at your club or in competition, so I can have a laugh. :big grin: :manoyes:
Also, you sound like a judo snob.

This post has been edited by WBWAndering: 28 January 2012 - 09:44 PM

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#12 User is offline   seatea 

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 10:00 PM

Spaceghost; I'd be cautious about taking advice off someone who cannot figure out how to use the quote function, despite being on the forum for over six weeks.:rolleyes:
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#13 User is offline   medo 

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 10:02 PM

View PostWBWAndering, on 28 January 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

Medo

Now all that's left is for you to do the same, buddy. Post a video of yourself doing newaza at your club or in competition, so I can have a laugh. :big grin: :manoyes:
Also, you sound like a judo snob.


Your problem is that you know a little bit, but think you know everything. I'm far more competent than you in anything concerning newaza. Stop making a fool of yourself, plz

Ouch you posted that above. Having viewed you playing with you brother again, most interesting. :wub:

I bet you have the last word just a guess ;wry)
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#14 User is offline   WBWAndering 

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 10:04 PM

Can anybody with BJJ experience please visit the thread to set the rookies straight? What I recommended is a classic BJJ strategy. However, breaking through the brick wall of ignorance is just very hard.
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#15 User is offline   bromlinator 

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 11:17 PM

Buy Mike swain's newaza dvds.Best 50 bucks I ever spent on learning newaza....He's a former world champ and an olympic medalist to boot. Watch them and apply the lessons to your regular practice...you'll get alot better in a hurry!
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