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Nage no Kata workshop - Advice/ideas please? Help with a workshop on Nage no Kata Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Geoff 

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 05:23 PM

A colleague and I will be running a training day on Nage no kata at the end of March for a mixed ability adult class, many of whom will be coaches, probably about five hours teaching time. If you were us and you could think of five key teaching points that you would present for people to take away, what would they be?

Greatly appreciate anyone's input :)

Geoff
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#2 User is offline   Tafftaz 

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 05:49 PM

View PostGeoff, on 15 January 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

A colleague and I will be running a training day on Nage no kata at the end of March for a mixed ability adult class, many of whom will be coaches, probably about five hours teaching time. If you were us and you could think of five key teaching points that you would present for people to take away, what would they be?

Greatly appreciate anyone's input :)

Geoff


Geoff I am not sure if you are on Facebook but Duncan Kinnear is. I am sure that he could give you some excellent pointers if you message him.
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#3 User is offline   Geoff 

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 06:09 PM

View PostTafftaz, on 15 January 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

Geoff I am not sure if you are on Facebook but Duncan Kinnear is. I am sure that he could give you some excellent pointers if you message him.


Hi Phil,

I have been to a number of Duncan's courses and viewed his nage no kata on quite a few occasions, I also have notes that I took. I'll email him. Thanks for that.
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#4 User is offline   Jonesy 

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 06:49 PM

I will email you ome stuff. Can you please send me a pm with your email.

Cheers......
Dr Llyr C Jones
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#5 User is offline   paul778 

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 07:04 PM

View PostGeoff, on 15 January 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

A colleague and I will be running a training day on Nage no kata at the end of March for a mixed ability adult class, many of whom will be coaches, probably about five hours teaching time. If you were us and you could think of five key teaching points that you would present for people to take away, what would they be?

Greatly appreciate anyone's input :)

Geoff



Hi Geoff
I would advise you treat your kata course as you would teaching any other technique, look at how you set the situation up, how you grip and how you take control.
Then think about your entry, would you be breaking balance before you enter? once your in you can look at the application and effectiveness of the technique.
if you look at it as "a situation" of who and when is control taken, it can be easier for people to relate to in their everyday judo.
Of course this is only one way you could approach it.
Best of luck
Paul
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#6 User is offline   billc 

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 07:08 PM

Geoff,

One piece of advice, and it is a very difficult thing to do.

Don't expect perfection on each technique before moving on to the next one. How many nagenokata workouts have we been to where the instructor ... though very skilled at kata ... nitpicked ukiotoshi and seoinage then looked at the clock realizing that half the day had gone by. Literally. Then a frustrated attempt to cover the rest follows, sometimes concluding after the ashiwaza set with "you should learn the sutemiwaza later anyway."

Those who have worked on nagenokata for some time will especially hate this pace. Maybe plan your day so that you spend no more than 30 minutes on each set, giving yourself time for a quick light lunch (or do you guys do "tea") and the opportunity for folks to demonstrate their kata for all at the end of the day.

For what it is worth, for the first session I try to give my beginners the very basic things to work on ... especially the roles of the attacker and the defender in general ... the tsugiashi and "push-pull" rhythm. Don't worry so much that they are unable to stop the competition style seoinage grip, or that their right side is different from the left ... that takes lots of time to overcome as you certainly know.

For fun ... and with good result ... we've also done some workouts in the warm season which start with the ukemi ... especially the ukiotoshi and uranage ... which are arguably the trickiest for different reasons. We have drills for those in particular and they really help the beginners understand the concept ... and take some of the itai away from the more advanced uke.

Not sure what the objective is for your training day. Some places use these kinds of events to polish their kata "competition" skills, to go over the latest things that "they" want to see. Others spend about a day on nagenokata in total and then pronounce that ikkyu "know" the nagenokata and can now be promoted to shodan never again having to endure it. Probably our club is one of those that is in between ... we get razzed from both extremes ... by the shiai focused folks who think it's a waste of time entirely only to be done so fat old men in candy belts can boss people around (sometimes true). Then there are those who "compete" in nagenokata as if it were Russian ice dancing and of course our variations and lack of focus horrify those folks too.

We really enjoy the guest instructors that visit us, but we also have a kata workout once a week for about 90 minutes to work on whatever kata we want and whatever part we want to focus on. But ... we have a full time dojo with double stacked mats over the softest wooden floor in Southern California ... :P

Good luck ... have fun.
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#7 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 07:12 PM

View PostGeoff, on 15 January 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

A colleague and I will be running a training day on Nage no kata at the end of March for a mixed ability adult class, many of whom will be coaches, probably about five hours teaching time. If you were us and you could think of five key teaching points that you would present for people to take away, what would they be?

Greatly appreciate anyone's input :)

Geoff


Be infectious with your teaching. Being taught by a kata teacher who is half soaked and boring is the WORST introduction to kata.

Make the point of showing the vital and real relation kata has with randori and shiai.

Dont get bogged down with cermoney, make the principles of the kata THE point of focus.

Ensure the attacks are real and explain why.

Do not allow the kata to become some sort of walking dead useless futile pointless action performed by dead people in shrouds, we where a Gi!

Ensure YOU know your stuff before you teach it. Read and re read as many books as you can and study yourself. Preperation is 90% of the teaching.

Maintain momentum and dont let the group have time to even think about getting bored.

As you teach the nage no kata tell its story, explain why each waza follows each waza and make it a living breathing exercise with ryme and reason.

Did I mention being infectious?

Most important, ensure each member learns that each kata has a value directly related to their own judo performance. Tomoe nage is not 'just tomoe nage' but a living example of one of the most important principles in judo, same with the seoinage.

Slow to start then add speed with experience.

Ensure they work darn hard!

Very best wishes,

Mike

Edit, at the start of this mail I received a phone call. I now see others have added posts. I strongly suggest you center your teaching around your own personality and not emulate any other judoka. Teaching is an individual activity and your main tool is yourself, use you character to teach. Not sure if I am clear on that?

This post has been edited by Hanon: 15 January 2012 - 07:16 PM

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#8 User is offline   Geoff 

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 07:33 PM

View PostHanon, on 15 January 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

Be infectious with your teaching. Being taught by a kata teacher who is half soaked and boring is the WORST introduction to kata.

Make the point of showing the vital and real relation kata has with randori and shiai.

Dont get bogged down with cermoney, make the principles of the kata THE point of focus.

Ensure the attacks are real and explain why.

Do not allow the kata to become some sort of walking dead useless futile pointless action performed by dead people in shrouds, we where a Gi!

Ensure YOU know your stuff before you teach it. Read and re read as many books as you can and study yourself. Preperation is 90% of the teaching.

Maintain momentum and dont let the group have time to even think about getting bored.

As you teach the nage no kata tell its story, explain why each waza follows each waza and make it a living breathing exercise with ryme and reason.

Did I mention being infectious?

Most important, ensure each member learns that each kata has a value directly related to their own judo performance. Tomoe nage is not 'just tomoe nage' but a living example of one of the most important principles in judo, same with the seoinage.

Slow to start then add speed with experience.

Ensure they work darn hard!

Very best wishes,

Mike

Edit, at the start of this mail I received a phone call. I now see others have added posts. I strongly suggest you center your teaching around your own personality and not emulate any other judoka. Teaching is an individual activity and your main tool is yourself, use you character to teach. Not sure if I am clear on that?


Thanks Mike,

We will certainly take on board your suggestions. It won't be boring and it will be hard work and lots of fun. Pretty much a confirmation of the type of session we were planning on delivering.
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#9 User is offline   Tafftaz 

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 07:50 PM

In all fairness Geoff I don't think you will have any problems.
As I have told you before ,I have been to one of your kata days many years ago in Cardiff and it was a great day.
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#10 User is offline   Geoff 

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 08:28 PM

Thanks Phil,

You are too kind as ever. I know we can produce a worthwhile and entertaining workshop, It's just that we have never had the opportunity to get tips from Judoka from all over the world and with such a breadth of experience before, the forum and the Judo Information site is a fantastic resource. I don't do much in the judo world anymore and having such a helpful and informed group to get advice and ideas from is great. John is still very active coaching and training, so he's still up to date with the latest thoughts on teaching NNK.

Currently, there seems to be an upsurge in the UK re. interest in kata, particularly the randori no kata, so I was wondering how new coaches were approaching the subject.
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#11 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 08:38 PM

View PostGeoff, on 16 January 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

Thanks Phil,

You are too kind as ever. I know we can produce a worthwhile and entertaining workshop, It's just that we have never had the opportunity to get tips from Judoka from all over the world and with such a breadth of experience before, the forum and the Judo Information site is a fantastic resource. I don't do much in the judo world anymore and having such a helpful and informed group to get advice and ideas from is great. John is still very active coaching and training, so he's still up to date with the latest thoughts on teaching NNK.

Currently, there seems to be an upsurge in the UK re. interest in kata, particularly the randori no kata, so I was wondering how new coaches were approaching the subject.


Ahhhh, this is different. Are you teaching kata as part of judo or as a subject to entering competition. I am NOT being political but there will be a difference. In your initial post I think you mentioned "Coaches", are the coaches you write of general judo coaches who include kata as an integral part of their clubs judo teaching or are they the competetive inclined type of coaches? I know this is a very hot potatoe but the situation is not my doing, lol. You can teach kata in numerous manners with numerous intentions. You will need to enquire to what end your pupils desire to learn the kata?

Mike
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#12 User is offline   Geoff 

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 10:03 PM

View PostHanon, on 15 January 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

Ahhhh, this is different. Are you teaching kata as part of judo or as a subject to entering competition. I am NOT being political but there will be a difference. In your initial post I think you mentioned "Coaches", are the coaches you write of general judo coaches who include kata as an integral part of their clubs judo teaching or are they the competetive inclined type of coaches? I know this is a very hot potatoe but the situation is not my doing, lol. You can teach kata in numerous manners with numerous intentions. You will need to enquire to what end your pupils desire to learn the kata?

Mike


Hi Mike,

Absolutely not teaching to enter kata comp. Respect to those who do, but not us. It's a bunch of predominantly Welsh coaches who need to renew their coaching award and one of the requirements is to attend a days NNK course. Some will need to practice kata for grading purposes and some for their own general personal judo development. Some will like to practice kata but won't have had a partner. Some will not know what it is and may be fascinated or indifferent to it. It's a mixed bunch really and until we arrive we won't know who wants what from the day. Job one will be introductions and finding out what they want to achieve from the day.
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#13 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 10:19 PM

View PostGeoff, on 16 January 2012 - 03:33 AM, said:

Hi Mike,

Absolutely not teaching to enter kata comp. Respect to those who do, but not us. It's a bunch of predominantly Welsh coaches who need to renew their coaching award and one of the requirements is to attend a days NNK course. Some will need to practice kata for grading purposes and some for their own general personal judo development. Some will like to practice kata but won't have had a partner. Some will not know what it is and may be fascinated or indifferent to it. It's a mixed bunch really and until we arrive we won't know who wants what from the day. Job one will be introductions and finding out what they want to achieve from the day.



Sounds a rather large task you have at hand. If you need any help from me I am a PM away.

Perhaps a hand out regarding the purpose of the nage no kata in simple terms may do well, needs to be basic for those who are new to kata but interesting enough for those who have kata knowledge and not to long. If you like I could draft one out for you?

Do you HAVE to cover the 15 waza and ceremony-presentation in just five hours? It sounds a great oportunity and challenge.

With this new information I think you are wise when the first order of the day is to asses who knows what and split them into groups. I have been in this position too many times. Go dan who cant ukemi well and have no idea what a sutemi waza is? Keep bright and dont mutter under your breath as you walk away from that go dan who thinks tsuri komi ashi is a koshi waza or some sort of Irish jig!lolol As the Guv'ner would say...SMILE

Dont forget to give every member a leak!

Mike
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#14 User is offline   Tafftaz 

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 11:53 PM

Leek Mike,it's spelled leek :lol:
Unless the judoka are going to start spouting tears when they try the nage no kata.
By the way Geoff,where is the course being held and when?
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#15 User is offline   Jonesy 

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 07:14 AM

View PostTafftaz, on 15 January 2012 - 07:50 PM, said:

In all fairness Geoff I don't think you will have any problems.
As I have told you before ,I have been to one of your kata days many years ago in Cardiff and it was a great day.

X2 - absolutely agree.
Dr Llyr C Jones
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