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#1 User is offline   Matthew Jones 

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 04:16 PM

Hello,

I apologize for the rambling nature of this post, but I have a lot of ideas floating around in my head!

I'm starting to get to the place in my training where I not only think about increasing my own personal skill, but also helping my training partners to become better as well. I'm wondering in what ways practice is different when I have this mindset? How do I do randori to help others become better while at the same time increasing my own skill?

Typically in randori I am working on my own weaknesses and am trying to overcome my partner using skill and technique, should I change anything? For example in newaza should I try to positionally dominate, submit etc, or should I be letting my partner get position on me and try their submissions?

I'd appreciate your thoughts on how/if randori changes when you take on an instructing mindset. Thanks!

This post has been edited by Matthew Jones: 10 November 2011 - 04:17 PM

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#2 User is offline   icb 

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 06:35 PM

This is a somewhat complicated issue. It is great for you to be thinking about helping others in their development of judo (a particular facet of "mutual welfare and benefit"), but if you are not their regular instructor, then it is not always clear-cut what is going to help them in their short-term or long-term development.

If they are close to you in ability and size, strength, etc., then normally the best thing for them is for you to continue as you have been doing. Doing randori with a better judoka is great for their development all by itself, without you trying to teach them anything specific through it.

On the other hand, if there is a big gap is skill and/or size, strength, etc., then you do need to adapt how your do randori if they are to learn anything other than ukemi and tapping. However, how do you know what is going to help them the most in the short-term and/or long-term? Maybe they do need to improve their ukemi; maybe their movement or posture; their attacking or their defending; their tsurikomi action or their tsukuri; their turnovers or their defending turnovers; their explosive speed or their combinations. You are not going to know what will be most helpful unless you have an ongoing relationship as student and instructor. If I'm doing randori with students I know well, then I'm considering all these possibilities, evaluating and prioritizing what I think they need to work on. If I don't know them well, then I ask their regular instructor what aspects of their judo they should be working on. If their regular instructor isn't around, then I wing it somewhat, and try to work on a variety of things, evaluating how they are doing and trying to help them with their most egregious problems first.

In your example of newaza, sometimes it might be helpful for you to be more defensive and let your partner attack more. Maybe you want to give them some obvious openings and give them a chance of successfully applying the technique. On the other hand, maybe they need to work on their defense more, so you should apply some serious attacks, but give them some openings for escaping or nullifying your technique. You are only going to know what is appropriate if you have some appreciation for their short- and long-term development. If you're not sure, ask their regular instructor, or if that's not possible, try to mix it up at least. Change up how much you attack and defend, vary how big and obvious you make the opportunities for attacking or escaping. But as they get closer to you in their abilities, just aim to be a good tough partner in randori - that will help them a lot in their development.

This post has been edited by icb: 10 November 2011 - 06:36 PM

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#3 User is offline   Gant 

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 09:00 PM

View PostMatthew Jones, on 10 November 2011 - 10:16 AM, said:

I'm starting to get to the place in my training where I not only think about increasing my own personal skill, but also helping my training partners to become better as well. I'm wondering in what ways practice is different when I have this mindset? How do I do randori to help others become better while at the same time increasing my own skill?


Jita kyoei.

JudoSensei has a nice primer about randori. Start with that.

http://judoinfo.com/...-neil-ohlenkamp
Your physiology doesn't care what your philosophy is.

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#4 User is offline   slimofmst 

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 02:20 PM

my coach always told me that brown belt is the selfish belt. it's the level where the other players know you are working on your game, and aside form occasional feedback and pointers, with new/novice players, much of your time is spent feeding on the smaller fish and the fish at your level of the food chain. it is the belt of working toward your shodan and developing your specific game/tokuiwaza.

dunno what belt you are, but hope this advice helps.
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#5 User is offline   bythesea 

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 04:19 PM

View PostGant, on 10 November 2011 - 01:00 PM, said:

Jita kyoei.


^^^
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#6 User is offline   Taigyo 

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 08:14 PM

I had always been told with more experienced/skilled people to just do your best and try to learn from their technique. This also involves not putting up a huge amount of resistance to their technique. Pretty tough to learn when you are all out fighting not to be thrown.

People of even level, just work on your stuff, whatever in particular you want to try

People of lower level are a bit tougher. There is the "pulling up" principle, where you do not just crush them, but go after them with a level only slightly higher than theirs in an attempt to draw them upward. There is the flip side of working with more skilled people where you let them attack and occasionally throw them with a really good technique to serve as a model. Some people say you should never use your best technique on less skilled players as this can lead to sloppiness. The flip side of that approach is to work on new stuff or things you do not typically do with beginners, it provides a bit of a handicap to even things up, plus it allows you to try and work on things without getting your head handed to you.
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#7 User is offline   Ben Reinhardt 

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 04:38 AM

View PostMatthew Jones, on 10 November 2011 - 08:16 AM, said:

Hello,

I apologize for the rambling nature of this post, but I have a lot of ideas floating around in my head!

I'm starting to get to the place in my training where I not only think about increasing my own personal skill, but also helping my training partners to become better as well. I'm wondering in what ways practice is different when I have this mindset? How do I do randori to help others become better while at the same time increasing my own skill?

Typically in randori I am working on my own weaknesses and am trying to overcome my partner using skill and technique, should I change anything? For example in newaza should I try to positionally dominate, submit etc, or should I be letting my partner get position on me and try their submissions?

I'd appreciate your thoughts on how/if randori changes when you take on an instructing mindset. Thanks!


How long have you been doing judo, your rank, and are you the primary instructor?

That asked, it is very difficult to improve your own skill if you are seriously instructing others. If you are instructing, that implies you already have superior skill/knowledge.

So when I'm instructing, which is 99% of the time, I have to integrate what I do in randori with a student with what I have been teaching in both the short and long term. It can't be random, or for my benefit (besides getting some exercise, or possibly doing something like pretending to be a lefty for kenka yotsu training or something similar). For example, if we have been working counters to Ouchi Gari, I attack with Ouchi Gari at a level they can counter, then take the level of the attack up slightly until they struggle a bit, then adjust as necessary.

With a less skilled person, put yourself in a weaker position and deal with it. With a more skilled person, do your best, attacking as much as possible without being a spazz. With a person similar skill level, focus on using your best skillset and or attempt to work on new skills you are developing.
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#8 User is offline   danguy 

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 06:03 AM

View PostBen Reinhardt, on 16 November 2011 - 08:38 PM, said:

How long have you been doing judo, your rank, and are you the primary instructor?

That asked, it is very difficult to improve your own skill if you are seriously instructing others. If you are instructing, that implies you already have superior skill/knowledge.

His profile reads Judo ikkyu and his roll as a student.
If I am doing "win," sloppy and sissy is fine; if I am doing Judo, beautiful is my rule and goal. Judo is far more important and rewarding than "win."

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"You should first try to negotiate nicely but you can be strong after there's resistance, and know, just like in judo, when to catch them." --Rusty Kanokogi, 2008, on negotiating.
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#9 User is offline   up-and-over! 

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 08:31 AM

when i randori some of them are a little bit younger than me so i can normally win i think if im just going to easly win whats the point? how will i/them get anything from that?
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#10 User is offline   Matthew Jones 

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 07:49 PM

I regularly put myself in disadvantaged positions in randori, this helps me to be challenged by my partner and gives them opportunties to attack me. Perhaps that is enough to help my partner learn at this point in my career (been training regularly for 7 years now).
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#11 User is offline   b-cell 

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 10:48 AM

View Postdanguy, on 20 November 2011 - 10:03 PM, said:

His profile reads Judo ikkyu and his roll as a student.

He is the instructor of the class and a good one; not the head instructor, but he takes the class most nights. He's especially good at teaching randori. IMO, his actual skill level is not well represented by his official judo rank.

This post has been edited by b-cell: 22 November 2011 - 01:59 PM

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#12 User is offline   Matthew Jones 

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 04:18 PM

Thanks for the comment b-cell. I would say more accurately I run classes when needed.
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#13 User is offline   danguy 

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 09:37 AM

View Postdanguy, on 20 November 2011 - 10:03 PM, said:

His profile reads Judo ikkyu and his roll as a student.

View Postb-cell, on 22 November 2011 - 02:48 AM, said:

He is the instructor of the class and a good one; not the head instructor, but he takes the class most nights. He's especially good at teaching randori. IMO, his actual skill level is not well represented by his official judo rank.

View PostMatthew Jones, on 22 November 2011 - 08:18 AM, said:

Thanks for the comment b-cell. I would say more accurately I run classes when needed.


Perhaps a profile up date is in order. :hap:
If I am doing "win," sloppy and sissy is fine; if I am doing Judo, beautiful is my rule and goal. Judo is far more important and rewarding than "win."

"What you are as a person is far more important than what you are as a basketball [Judo] player." --John Wooden 1910-2010

"You should first try to negotiate nicely but you can be strong after there's resistance, and know, just like in judo, when to catch them." --Rusty Kanokogi, 2008, on negotiating.
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#14 User is offline   waxtutor 

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 04:35 AM

by doing your best judo in randori, your partners will have to increase their game to compete with you. I do not mean beat them up. I mean do all of your techniques well done, nothing sloppy and nothing overpowering with muscle.

Once your partners can start blocking and countering you, they how now stepped up to their next level and you can proceed to your next level as well.
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