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Sensible weight routine for judo Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Gant 

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 07:08 PM

It's getting to be that time again. A lot of "rate my program" questions are popping up. So, rather than be tacky and talk about how crappy most of this stuff is like I usually do--thus getting more negative feedback--here is a program.

This is what I recommend to the judoka I know who are starting a weight routine for the first time. This doesn't mean they haven't used weights; it means I haven't been around them while they're doing it, so I need a baseline. This also doesn't mean they aren't strong. If you bench 275 for reps, I'll still start you on this program.

Here is a two-day per week lifting program. If you work hard on this for 6-12 months, you will be stronger than 95% of the people who spout silly things on this forum (the other 5% have already done something similar to this). Notation is sets x reps (3x5 is 3 sets of 5 reps).

A:
Power clean 5x2
Squat 3x5
Bench 3x5
Chin 3x10-15

B:
Power clean 5x2
Squat 3x5 (or front squat 5x3)
Press 3x5
Deadlift 1x5


Program notes:
* You do this. That's it. I'd recommend another day or two of agility work, complexes, and sprints/prowler work, but that's another topic.
* You add a bit of weight to powercleans each week (not every day). It should feel a little lighter on B day. This is practice day.
* You can back squat both days if you want (that's what I recommend starting out). If you feel tweaked, if deadlifting is hard after squatting, or if you just want to front squat, then you can alternate.
* If you can do 3x15 dead hang chins, then you need to add weight to keep the reps between 10 and 15.
* If you have extra time at the end, do farmers walks. Great ROI.
* All work sets sets are "sets across" (same weight for each set). Do 3-4 warmup sets (always start with the empty bar) to get there.
* Add ten pounds per week to squat, five pounds per week to your presses, and 5 or fewer pounds per week to power clean.
* Once the weights feel heavy the gains slow, work for 3 weeks and deload for 1 week.
E.g. for squats:
week 1 405x5x3
week 2 415x5x3
week 3 425x5x3
week 4 225x5x3 (or go play soccer)
week 5 435x5x3 (or 425x5x3 if you need to)
etc.
***When you record your workouts, it is weight x reps x sets. I'm not sure why this is, but it is.

FAQ:
Q: This looks very similar to Starting Strength.
A: It looks like that for two reasons. One, SS being good and me being lazy, I see no need to change. Two, I have been friends with and trained at the author's gym since the late 90s (with a short break in there somewhere). I have discussed the tweaks I use for judo players. This is the result.

Q: What happens when I can't add weight any longer?
A: Ask when you get there. Most don't.

Q: Can I do...?
A: Maybe. But if you're asking because you don't know the answer, stick with the above until you sort things out.
Your physiology doesn't care what your philosophy is.

Practical Strength for Trainers
1

#2 User is offline   Darshu 

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 08:13 PM

6-12 months??? But this month's Muscle & Fiction magazine has a workout that it says will pack on 30lbs of muscle in 30 days and send me to the Olympics in any event I want. :P
John Schneider
JudoFitness.com

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1. The Body is One Piece
2. There are three kinds of strength training:
• Putting weight overhead
• Picking it off the ground
• Carrying it for time or distance
3. All training is complementary.
-Dan John
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#3 User is offline   Gaijin Judoka 

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 08:28 PM

Is there a specific percentage to the amount of weight you remove when deloading?
It is a great ability to be able to conceal one's ability.

Francois de la Rochefoucauld
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#4 User is offline   Gant 

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 08:51 PM

View PostGaijin Judoka, on 19 September 2011 - 03:28 PM, said:

Is there a specific percentage to the amount of weight you remove when deloading?


Typically 50-60%. If you get too heavy the stress you incur can be significant enough to cause adaptation, which is what you're trying to avoid. It's basically active rest. You practice the movement but don't stress yourself. If you want to play soccer or tennis (or just do judo), that's fine, too.
Your physiology doesn't care what your philosophy is.

Practical Strength for Trainers
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#5 User is offline   Neil G 

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 09:35 PM

What do you recommend for rest time between sets? Same for warmup sets? Do all sets of one exercise before moving to the next or alternate exercises?
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#6 User is offline   Gant 

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 09:42 PM

View PostNeil G, on 19 September 2011 - 04:35 PM, said:

What do you recommend for rest time between sets? Same for warmup sets? Do all sets of one exercise before moving to the next or alternate exercises?


Whatever you need. When working for strength, you want to recover well between sets. At first, you may be able to rest 30 seconds before you're ready to squat again. Once the weight gets heavy, you may need up to 5-6 minutes. Most people tend to rest between 3-5 minutes between moderate work sets.

You do the exercises in this order, and you complete each one before moving to the next.
Your physiology doesn't care what your philosophy is.

Practical Strength for Trainers
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#7 User is offline   kevsooner 

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 10:23 PM

:manoyes:


View PostGant, on 19 September 2011 - 01:08 PM, said:

It's getting to be that time again. A lot of "rate my program" questions are popping up. So, rather than be tacky and talk about how crappy most of this stuff is like I usually do--thus getting more negative feedback--here is a program.

This is what I recommend to the judoka I know who are starting a weight routine for the first time. This doesn't mean they haven't used weights; it means I haven't been around them while they're doing it, so I need a baseline. This also doesn't mean they aren't strong. If you bench 275 for reps, I'll still start you on this program.

Here is a two-day per week lifting program. If you work hard on this for 6-12 months, you will be stronger than 95% of the people who spout silly things on this forum (the other 5% have already done something similar to this). Notation is sets x reps (3x5 is 3 sets of 5 reps).

A:
Power clean 5x2
Squat 3x5
Bench 3x5
Chin 3x10-15

B:
Power clean 5x2
Squat 3x5 (or front squat 5x3)
Press 3x5
Deadlift 1x5


Program notes:
* You do this. That's it. I'd recommend another day or two of agility work, complexes, and sprints/prowler work, but that's another topic.
* You add a bit of weight to powercleans each week (not every day). It should feel a little lighter on B day. This is practice day.
* You can back squat both days if you want (that's what I recommend starting out). If you feel tweaked, if deadlifting is hard after squatting, or if you just want to front squat, then you can alternate.
* If you can do 3x15 dead hang chins, then you need to add weight to keep the reps between 10 and 15.
* If you have extra time at the end, do farmers walks. Great ROI.
* All work sets sets are "sets across" (same weight for each set). Do 3-4 warmup sets (always start with the empty bar) to get there.
* Add ten pounds per week to squat, five pounds per week to your presses, and 5 or fewer pounds per week to power clean.
* Once the weights feel heavy the gains slow, work for 3 weeks and deload for 1 week.
E.g. for squats:
week 1 405x5x3
week 2 415x5x3
week 3 425x5x3
week 4 225x5x3 (or go play soccer)
week 5 435x5x3 (or 425x5x3 if you need to)
etc.
***When you record your workouts, it is weight x reps x sets. I'm not sure why this is, but it is.

FAQ:
Q: This looks very similar to Starting Strength.
A: It looks like that for two reasons. One, SS being good and me being lazy, I see no need to change. Two, I have been friends with and trained at the author's gym since the late 90s (with a short break in there somewhere). I have discussed the tweaks I use for judo players. This is the result.

Q: What happens when I can't add weight any longer?
A: Ask when you get there. Most don't.

Q: Can I do...?
A: Maybe. But if you're asking because you don't know the answer, stick with the above until you sort things out.

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#8 User is offline   Gaijin Judoka 

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 10:44 PM

View PostGant, on 19 September 2011 - 01:51 PM, said:

Typically 50-60%. If you get too heavy the stress you incur can be significant enough to cause adaptation, which is what you're trying to avoid. It's basically active rest. You practice the movement but don't stress yourself. If you want to play soccer or tennis (or just do judo), that's fine, too.


Thanks Gant.



It is a great ability to be able to conceal one's ability.

Francois de la Rochefoucauld
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#9 User is offline   Arteta 

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 01:31 AM

Lol, well now I feel silly for arguing in that other thread for why you should use SS, when you know the legend himself! I thought you were somewhat against it.

You didn't respond to my post though; does Rippetoe feel that you can lose weight on SS?

This post has been edited by Arteta: 20 September 2011 - 01:32 AM

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#10 User is offline   CHH 

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 04:05 AM

Do I wear a snorkel while doing these exercises or should I just train with my mouthpiece in?
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#11 User is offline   Sylver 

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 12:53 PM

Interesting and straight to the point, thanks.

A few questions:

1. How do you determine the starting weight to use for the various exercises?
As much as I can handle? 70% of my 1 rep max?

2. Power clean
I am not sure about the technique. I have tried to do it based on a few descriptions I found and some youtube videos, but I am not confident enough about my technique to try with weights heavier than what I can easily lift "normally". Is there a good, reliable reference on the technique?

Compared to a progressive pick up from the floor, how much weight should I work with? Let's say I can pick up 100kg from the floor, how much should I try for a power clean?

3. warm-up and/or cardio before lifting?
What kind of warm-up do you normally do before lifting?
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#12 User is offline   Gant 

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 03:30 PM

View PostSylver, on 20 September 2011 - 07:53 AM, said:

1. How do you determine the starting weight to use for the various exercises?
As much as I can handle? 70% of my 1 rep max?


Err on the light side. Do 2-3 warmup sets of 5 to get a feel. Your first 3x5 should feel easy. Technique should be good, the bar should move quickly, and you shouldn't have to spend a lot of time resting between sets. 3x5 takes a toll on the body. It will take several sessions to get used to it. Don't think of light sessions as a waste of time; think of them as practice. If you're adding ten pounds a clip, the bar will get heavy very soon.

Quote

2. Power clean
I am not sure about the technique. I have tried to do it based on a few descriptions I found and some youtube videos, but I am not confident enough about my technique to try with weights heavier than what I can easily lift "normally". Is there a good, reliable reference on the technique?


There are several good reference sites, including Catalyst Athletics and the Glenn Pendlay/California Strength site. It's obviously better to have someone coach you, but some people do quite well just with references. At some point, you'll want someone to watch you, even if you have to tell them what to look for, e.g. "Watch this rep. The bar should move in a straight line. Tell me if it moves up in a line or if I'm pushing it out to the front."

Quote

Compared to a progressive pick up from the floor, how much weight should I work with? Let's say I can pick up 100kg from the floor, how much should I try for a power clean?


Good questions. The terms get mixed up a bit. The clean can vary by 1) starting height and 2) catching height. A full clean starts from the floor and is caught in the bottom of the front squat position. Here's where we go from there.

Starting height
Full (default): starts from floor
Hang: starts above the knee to mid thigh; is often dipped to the knee or below the knee before pulling
*Some people dice up the hang to low, medium, and high or some variation.
**Tall: This starts standing up. It works the dynamics of the third pull (under the bar). Tall cleans are usually caught in the full squat position. It doesn't make sense to do much else with them.

Catch height
Full (default): bottom of squat
Power: knees are above parallel
Muscle: pretty much standing up

So you can have hang cleans, power cleans, hang power cleans, whatever. If you're just working on these, start with power cleans (pull from the floor, catch it with thighs parallel or above).

Quote

3. warm-up and/or cardio before lifting?
What kind of warm-up do you normally do before lifting?


No cardio for warmup. Some people suggest that you burn more fat if you do cardio before weight training. These people are pasty and weak and have chronic halitosis. If you're lifting to get strong, then don't do anything compromises you getting strong (like doing cardio before weight training).

Ideal warmup: something that warms up the body. Really. Mobility prep, prehab, rowing, gymnastics movements (dip/squat/chinup). If you want to do foam rolling, band work, or other crap, do it between your warm up (or even work sets on cleans and squats). Save the stretching for later. Or never. Mobility>flexibility.

My warmup: talk trash to other people while I'm setting up my rack or platform. Pop my neck and hang from the bar for a few seconds. Start squatting or cleaning with light weights. Keep in mind I'm held together by scar tissue, spackle, and a poor attitude. Use my warmup at your own risk.
Your physiology doesn't care what your philosophy is.

Practical Strength for Trainers
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#13 User is offline   Gaijin Judoka 

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 04:01 PM

I usually ride a stationary bike for 5 minutes at a moderate pace as a warm up. Here is a warm up calculator I use for the lifting. Good for a n00b like me.

https://docs.google....SXc&hl=en#gid=0
It is a great ability to be able to conceal one's ability.

Francois de la Rochefoucauld
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#14 User is offline   MikeM82 

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 04:41 PM

I alternate between strength training and high intensity weight training, rotating doing strength training for a number of weeks and high intensity training for a number of weeks.

For strength training I will do what is referred to as 5x5 training. This is mainly compound exercises: Squats, clean and jerk, bench press etc.

High intensity training I will set up a circuit of 10 exercises, 10 reps on each. Again this can be bench press, squats, lunges, clean and jerk, curls, lat raises, deadlifts, bent over rows, tyre flips etc. For the duration I am doing high intensity training I will alternate days so that one day I may be for example doing chest, biceps, legs and the other day I am doing back, shoulders, triceps, abs or whatever. So essentially the muscles are doing 2 different exercises on each muscle group per circuit. No rest between exercises. Rest between circuits may vary.
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#15 User is offline   Sylver 

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 04:46 PM

View PostGant, on 20 September 2011 - 10:30 PM, said:

Err on the light side. Do 2-3 warmup sets of 5 to get a feel. Your first 3x5 should feel easy. Technique should be good, the bar should move quickly, and you shouldn't have to spend a lot of time resting between sets. 3x5 takes a toll on the body. It will take several sessions to get used to it. Don't think of light sessions as a waste of time; think of them as practice. If you're adding ten pounds a clip, the bar will get heavy very soon.



There are several good reference sites, including Catalyst Athletics and the Glenn Pendlay/California Strength site. It's obviously better to have someone coach you, but some people do quite well just with references. At some point, you'll want someone to watch you, even if you have to tell them what to look for, e.g. "Watch this rep. The bar should move in a straight line. Tell me if it moves up in a line or if I'm pushing it out to the front."



Good questions. The terms get mixed up a bit. The clean can vary by 1) starting height and 2) catching height. A full clean starts from the floor and is caught in the bottom of the front squat position. Here's where we go from there.

Starting height
Full (default): starts from floor
Hang: starts above the knee to mid thigh; is often dipped to the knee or below the knee before pulling
*Some people dice up the hang to low, medium, and high or some variation.
**Tall: This starts standing up. It works the dynamics of the third pull (under the bar). Tall cleans are usually caught in the full squat position. It doesn't make sense to do much else with them.

Catch height
Full (default): bottom of squat
Power: knees are above parallel
Muscle: pretty much standing up

So you can have hang cleans, power cleans, hang power cleans, whatever. If you're just working on these, start with power cleans (pull from the floor, catch it with thighs parallel or above).



No cardio for warmup. Some people suggest that you burn more fat if you do cardio before weight training. These people are pasty and weak and have chronic halitosis. If you're lifting to get strong, then don't do anything compromises you getting strong (like doing cardio before weight training).

Ideal warmup: something that warms up the body. Really. Mobility prep, prehab, rowing, gymnastics movements (dip/squat/chinup). If you want to do foam rolling, band work, or other crap, do it between your warm up (or even work sets on cleans and squats). Save the stretching for later. Or never. Mobility>flexibility.

My warmup: talk trash to other people while I'm setting up my rack or platform. Pop my neck and hang from the bar for a few seconds. Start squatting or cleaning with light weights. Keep in mind I'm held together by scar tissue, spackle, and a poor attitude. Use my warmup at your own risk.


Thanks for the details. I'll give it a shot, except perhaps for your warm up routine. I don't have anywhere near enough scar tissue to get away with it, and I don't feel like getting some.
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