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#1 User is offline   genetic judoka 

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 07:33 PM

while at judo camp over the past weekend, I had an idea for a video.

my idea was to make a video doing the throws of NNK in normal order, but done in randori-like motion instead of the traditional way, and possibly using the more competition friendly version of the throws if the need to do so arises.

what's the point of this? no point whatsoever. it's not like it's an attempt to replace NNK or something, I just thought it might be kinda cool.

the reason for making this thread is that I don't know if doing so would be seen as offensive or something to the traditionalists out there, so I made this thread to inquire about that. is there some judo rule/principle I'm unaware of that forbids doing this? and if not, do you think this is a worthwhile endeavor? if not, why not?
"Let the refining and improving of your own life keep you so busy that you have little time to criticize others." -H. Jackson Brown Jr.

"Wise men don't need to prove their point. Men who need to prove their point aren't wise" -Lao Tzu

"When torrential waters move a massive boulder, it is because of momentum.
When a hawk’s strike breaks the body of its prey, it is because of timing." -Sun Tzu

"The Way of strategy is the Way of nature. When you appreciate the power of nature, knowing the rhythm of any situation,
you will be able to hit the enemy naturally and strike naturally. All this is the Way of the Void." -Miyamoto Musashi
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#2 User is offline   billc 

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 08:38 PM

You won't offend me at least ... but I have a bigger challenge for you.

Become so good at doing the nagenokata that you can do them at will, in the original manner, in order, in randori, with some wet-behind-the-ears beginner who pronounces boldly "kata is ineffective."

I DARE you to become that good.
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#3 User is offline   Jacob3 

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 08:43 PM

View Postgenetic judoka, on 28 June 2011 - 08:33 PM, said:

while at judo camp over the past weekend, I had an idea for a video.

my idea was to make a video doing the throws of NNK in normal order, but done in randori-like motion instead of the traditional way, and possibly using the more competition friendly version of the throws if the need to do so arises.

what's the point of this? no point whatsoever. it's not like it's an attempt to replace NNK or something, I just thought it might be kinda cool.

the reason for making this thread is that I don't know if doing so would be seen as offensive or something to the traditionalists out there, so I made this thread to inquire about that. is there some judo rule/principle I'm unaware of that forbids doing this? and if not, do you think this is a worthwhile endeavor? if not, why not?


Well, what you are suggesting here, seems like exactly what kata are intended for. By performing the techniques in the prescribed manner, you should be learning how to apply the underlying principles. Because of that, at some stage, you should be able to any throw, based on those principles in randori fashion. So as long as you do not claim such a film, being a better way of performing NNK, then I see no problem there. In fact, you might be demonstrating that you have grasped the lesson of the NNK...
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#4 User is offline   ThePieman 

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 11:02 PM

View Postbillc, on 28 June 2011 - 09:38 PM, said:

Become so good at doing the nagenokata that you can do them at will, in the original manner, in order, in randori


Aww, I thought that's what he meant! :rolleyes: I was really looking forward to that video. :sad(

I DARE you to get so good that you can do it in shiai, finishing with uki waza in the final :big grin:

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#5 User is offline   judogido 

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 11:39 PM

Well - the NNK SHOULD really be done with a bit more "oomph" than is ordinarily displayed ... interspersed with the slower more ritualised movement when getting up an returning to the starting position of the next attack sequence. And the strikes should have a bit more intent in them than you normally see - as my instructor once told me you actually aim to conk them on the head - if they don't counter with the proper kata throw it's their own fault.

A fun idea - go for it! Try to maintain the "character" of the kata but make it more "spicy" - like adding tabasco sauce to your spaghetti bolognaise.
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#6 User is offline   bythesea 

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 11:43 PM

View PostThePieman, on 28 June 2011 - 04:02 PM, said:

I DARE you to get so good that you can do it in shiai, finishing with uki waza in the final :big grin:


OK. That would be incredible. I wonder how long it would take everyone watching to figure out what you were doing. Although, most tournaments around here, you would only have enough matches for a set, if that.
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#7 User is offline   genetic judoka 

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 03:41 PM

View Postbillc, on 28 June 2011 - 03:38 PM, said:

You won't offend me at least ... but I have a bigger challenge for you.

Become so good at doing the nagenokata that you can do them at will, in the original manner, in order, in randori, with some wet-behind-the-ears beginner who pronounces boldly "kata is ineffective."

I DARE you to become that good.

I've actually attempted to do that before, but not in the original manner. it will take more than a dare to become good enough that I can trick my uke into doing full force overhead strikes at exactly the right time. it was with a guy who was a notorious "pusher" in randori. I got thru the first set, but one of the yudansha at my club recognized what I was doing and came over and spilled the beans (I'm sure something looked a bit off when he saw me do an uki otoshi in randori).

View PostJacob3, on 28 June 2011 - 03:43 PM, said:

Well, what you are suggesting here, seems like exactly what kata are intended for. By performing the techniques in the prescribed manner, you should be learning how to apply the underlying principles. Because of that, at some stage, you should be able to any throw, based on those principles in randori fashion. So as long as you do not claim such a film, being a better way of performing NNK, then I see no problem there. In fact, you might be demonstrating that you have grasped the lesson of the NNK...

what if I go about it in a funny way? "my NNK can beat up your NNK!" would that go over well? :P


View Postjudogido, on 28 June 2011 - 06:39 PM, said:

Well - the NNK SHOULD really be done with a bit more "oomph" than is ordinarily displayed ... interspersed with the slower more ritualised movement when getting up an returning to the starting position of the next attack sequence. And the strikes should have a bit more intent in them than you normally see - as my instructor once told me you actually aim to conk them on the head - if they don't counter with the proper kata throw it's their own fault.

A fun idea - go for it! Try to maintain the "character" of the kata but make it more "spicy" - like adding tabasco sauce to your spaghetti bolognaise.

trust me, when I'm uke, I try to oomph my partner on the head! sadly I can remember 2 times where tori was not as ready as they claimed to be (2 different tori), which earned tori a big headache both times.

View Postbythesea, on 28 June 2011 - 06:43 PM, said:

OK. That would be incredible. I wonder how long it would take everyone watching to figure out what you were doing. Although, most tournaments around here, you would only have enough matches for a set, if that.

this leaves 2 options: deliberately throw for wazari/yuko (an idea that is very alien to me), or divide it out among several shiai. and I have thrown people in uki waza in shiai before, but it was not nearly as clean as my kata uki waza (which I was told at camp was very sharp :big grin: )


what I was thinking, since I'm already departing from tradition a bit, instead of doing it on both sides, me and my partner each do the throw once on the side of our choice (maybe I could do left side and they do right side, or vice versa). odds are to make the video look good we'd probably have to pause it in between sets, and do some editing. even though I think we could do it cleanly in one run, that's a lot of throws to be done in a semi unfamiliar way cleanly enough for me to want to post it online. this may turn into an all day project, but hey I'm young, so I've got the time, right? :glass)
"Let the refining and improving of your own life keep you so busy that you have little time to criticize others." -H. Jackson Brown Jr.

"Wise men don't need to prove their point. Men who need to prove their point aren't wise" -Lao Tzu

"When torrential waters move a massive boulder, it is because of momentum.
When a hawk’s strike breaks the body of its prey, it is because of timing." -Sun Tzu

"The Way of strategy is the Way of nature. When you appreciate the power of nature, knowing the rhythm of any situation,
you will be able to hit the enemy naturally and strike naturally. All this is the Way of the Void." -Miyamoto Musashi
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#8 User is offline   genetic judoka 

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 03:54 PM

oh and one more thing: Gatame No Kata in newaza randori? for it to not be goofy when done this way the whole knee sliding thing would have to be removed. however that would cut the kata in half.
"Let the refining and improving of your own life keep you so busy that you have little time to criticize others." -H. Jackson Brown Jr.

"Wise men don't need to prove their point. Men who need to prove their point aren't wise" -Lao Tzu

"When torrential waters move a massive boulder, it is because of momentum.
When a hawk’s strike breaks the body of its prey, it is because of timing." -Sun Tzu

"The Way of strategy is the Way of nature. When you appreciate the power of nature, knowing the rhythm of any situation,
you will be able to hit the enemy naturally and strike naturally. All this is the Way of the Void." -Miyamoto Musashi
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#9 User is offline   billc 

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 05:06 PM

View PostThePieman, on 28 June 2011 - 04:02 PM, said:

I DARE you to get so good that you can do it in shiai, finishing with uki waza in the final :big grin:



View Postbythesea, on 28 June 2011 - 04:43 PM, said:

OK. That would be incredible. I wonder how long it would take everyone watching to figure out what you were doing. Although, most tournaments around here, you would only have enough matches for a set, if that.


BTS ... I actually tried ukiotoshi on our big buddy Ruben in a tournament when he kept trying to sumo me out of bounds ... figuring he was trained to fall for it. Not only did Ruben come crashing down on my leg, young Emily would not let me catch a break and called me for "false attack."

But I did pull it off at the Nikkei Games a couple years back ... though the circumstances were so embarrassing I probably shouldn't mention it. :blush:

Ukiwaza ... on the other hand ... is an excellent tournament throw. Good for old men because we don't have to turn around to throw it. :lol:

This post has been edited by billc: 29 June 2011 - 05:08 PM

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#10 User is offline   bythesea 

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 05:19 PM

View Postbillc, on 29 June 2011 - 10:06 AM, said:

BTS ... I actually tried ukiotoshi on our big buddy Ruben in a tournament when he kept trying to sumo me out of bounds ... figuring he was trained to fall for it. Not only did Ruben come crashing down on my leg, young Emily would not let me catch a break and called me for "false attack."


:lol:

That sir, I would like to have seen! For both the uki otoshi attempt, and the look on your face when you got the shido. lol.

-------

OK, has ANYONE seen a yoko gake in shiai? Maybe I should try that next tournament.

Also, I'll be at the Nikkei games. Will do a match or two and scoreboards. Hope to see you there.
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#11 User is offline   genetic judoka 

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 05:59 PM

View Postbythesea, on 29 June 2011 - 12:19 PM, said:

OK, has ANYONE seen a yoko gake in shiai? Maybe I should try that next tournament.

yes. at least I thought I did. though it was being debated at the time whether to call it yoko gake or a weird kosoto gari where tori fell down too.
"Let the refining and improving of your own life keep you so busy that you have little time to criticize others." -H. Jackson Brown Jr.

"Wise men don't need to prove their point. Men who need to prove their point aren't wise" -Lao Tzu

"When torrential waters move a massive boulder, it is because of momentum.
When a hawk’s strike breaks the body of its prey, it is because of timing." -Sun Tzu

"The Way of strategy is the Way of nature. When you appreciate the power of nature, knowing the rhythm of any situation,
you will be able to hit the enemy naturally and strike naturally. All this is the Way of the Void." -Miyamoto Musashi
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#12 User is offline   Mitesco 

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 06:21 PM

View Postgenetic judoka, on 28 June 2011 - 09:33 PM, said:

while at judo camp over the past weekend, I had an idea for a video.

my idea was to make a video doing the throws of NNK in normal order, but done in randori-like motion instead of the traditional way, and possibly using the more competition friendly version of the throws if the need to do so arises.

what's the point of this? no point whatsoever. it's not like it's an attempt to replace NNK or something, I just thought it might be kinda cool.

the reason for making this thread is that I don't know if doing so would be seen as offensive or something to the traditionalists out there, so I made this thread to inquire about that. is there some judo rule/principle I'm unaware of that forbids doing this? and if not, do you think this is a worthwhile endeavor? if not, why not?


I think I will recommend the 18 y.o. kids starting with the theory and practice lessons for drivers licence to watch and make a broadcast of Top Gear. -_-
Kinda cool. :glass)



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#13 User is offline   genetic judoka 

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 08:45 PM

View PostMitesco, on 29 June 2011 - 01:21 PM, said:

I think I will recommend the 18 y.o. kids starting with the theory and practice lessons for drivers licence to watch and make a broadcast of Top Gear. -_-
Kinda cool. :glass)

not sure how I should interpret this, I'm getting mixed messages here.
"Let the refining and improving of your own life keep you so busy that you have little time to criticize others." -H. Jackson Brown Jr.

"Wise men don't need to prove their point. Men who need to prove their point aren't wise" -Lao Tzu

"When torrential waters move a massive boulder, it is because of momentum.
When a hawk’s strike breaks the body of its prey, it is because of timing." -Sun Tzu

"The Way of strategy is the Way of nature. When you appreciate the power of nature, knowing the rhythm of any situation,
you will be able to hit the enemy naturally and strike naturally. All this is the Way of the Void." -Miyamoto Musashi
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#14 User is offline   Ben Reinhardt 

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 10:19 PM

View Postbythesea, on 29 June 2011 - 10:19 AM, said:

:lol:

That sir, I would like to have seen! For both the uki otoshi attempt, and the look on your face when you got the shido. lol.

-------

OK, has ANYONE seen a yoko gake in shiai? Maybe I should try that next tournament.

Also, I'll be at the Nikkei games. Will do a match or two and scoreboards. Hope to see you there.


I've done Yoko Gake in shiai, but no video available.

I believe there was a famous Japanese player who had an unusual version he used with success in shiai, can't recall his name, though.

Ben
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#15 User is offline   Mitesco 

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 06:25 AM

View Postgenetic judoka, on 29 June 2011 - 10:45 PM, said:

not sure how I should interpret this, I'm getting mixed messages here.


Think about the purpose of kata and you will possibly understand. <_<



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