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Different ukemi In old NNK Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   aiyotsu 

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 10:06 AM

hello , I have been again watching the old footage of Nagaoka and Yamashita sensei performing NNK. Freeze framing the rolling Ukemi reveals that both uke bend their lower leg under the upper leg. So the ukemi is the same or similar to Jujutsu style. Therefore if people very close to Jigoro Kano were performing Ukemi this way it is logical that Jigoro Kano performed/taught it this way also. No??

Is there anyone out there who can tell me when this changed and more importantly why it changed.
regards aiyotsu
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#2 User is offline   SODO 

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 10:28 AM

View Postaiyotsu, on 11 May 2011 - 11:06 AM, said:

hello , I have been again watching the old footage of Nagaoka and Yamashita sensei performing NNK. Freeze framing the rolling Ukemi reveals that both uke bend their lower leg under the upper leg. So the ukemi is the same or similar to Jujutsu style. Therefore if people very close to Jigoro Kano were performing Ukemi this way it is logical that Jigoro Kano performed/taught it this way also. No??

Is there anyone out there who can tell me when this changed and more importantly why it changed.
regards aiyotsu

probably changes around 1930 after judo started to take off in the west were the "straight" leg ukemi became popular to protect a mans testicles, the crossed leg version usually meant that the boys got squashed, which as we have read on otherthreads can be very painfull, this only became a problem because western men just have bigger b@lls, some Japanese still do ukemi the old way :unsure:

atb


sodo

This post has been edited by SODO: 11 May 2011 - 11:35 AM

I'm not an alcoholic, alcoholics go to meetings.

I'm a drunk, we go to parties.
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#3 User is offline   Mitesco 

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 10:33 AM

Lol, sometimes judo is sooo practical! :rolleyes:



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#4 User is offline   heikojr 

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 12:48 PM

View PostSODO, on 11 May 2011 - 07:28 AM, said:

the crossed leg version usually meant that the boys got squashed, which as we have read on otherthreads can be very painfull


I didn't need to read this on other threads to know it was very painful!

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#5 User is offline   finarashi 

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 12:52 PM

View Postaiyotsu, on 11 May 2011 - 01:06 PM, said:

hello , I have been again watching the old footage of Nagaoka and Yamashita sensei performing NNK. Freeze framing the rolling Ukemi reveals that both uke bend their lower leg under the upper leg. So the ukemi is the same or similar to Jujutsu style. Therefore if people very close to Jigoro Kano were performing Ukemi this way it is logical that Jigoro Kano performed/taught it this way also. No??

Is there anyone out there who can tell me when this changed and more importantly why it changed.
regards aiyotsu

The big question in this and esspecially on many clips that we see Kano is "Is something we see; intentional, accurate, as told to do at the time, the way it was supposed to be done,... ?"

Way too often we IMHO assume that what we see is "right" and then differences to modern versions as "errors" in modern kata. Even many of the higher graeds of old days have sometimes made errors. It is also possible that some errors crept to clips (we know this from Kano clips).

So the answer can also be that Nagaoka and Yamashita sensei had learned bad ukemi habits and didn't want to correct them?
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#6 User is offline   aiyotsu 

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 07:17 PM

View Postfinarashi, on 12 May 2011 - 01:52 AM, said:

The big question in this and esspecially on many clips that we see Kano is "Is something we see; intentional, accurate, as told to do at the time, the way it was supposed to be done,... ?"

Way too often we IMHO assume that what we see is "right" and then differences to modern versions as "errors" in modern kata. Even many of the higher graeds of old days have sometimes made errors. It is also possible that some errors crept to clips (we know this from Kano clips).

So the answer can also be that Nagaoka and Yamashita sensei had learned bad ukemi habits and didn't want to correct them?
Hello Finarashi, thank you for your comments. It did not appear to me to be "bad" ukemi but different ukemi. Was it an error or was that how it was done. It strikes me that two men who were at the very top of Judo in it's heyday would not tolerate "routine bad form" especially so in a Kata presentation however modest. That ukemi was performed for all sutemi reqiring a roll so it did not seem to me just an occasional error. I noticed it on one clip so studied the other and found the same. There are other budo'bujutsu that today emphasise that different way as being correct. Old clips of Koryubujutsu show the same Ukemi. I am trying to find what changed, when and why.I would also like to point out that Nagaoka sensei taught Kata to Daigo sensei who I beleive to be the foremost kata expert. Was the student more knowledgeable than his master? Daigo sensei laments that he did not pay more attention.

Contrary to Sodo's claim; testicals are not damaged in fact legs are wider appart. As for Westerners being better endowed I suggest Sodo checking out Japanese errotica (not to derail my own thread I just thought that was over the top and needed nipping in the bud.)
Regards to all aiyotsu
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#7 User is offline   Ben Reinhardt 

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 07:44 PM

View Postaiyotsu, on 11 May 2011 - 03:06 AM, said:

hello , I have been again watching the old footage of Nagaoka and Yamashita sensei performing NNK. Freeze framing the rolling Ukemi reveals that both uke bend their lower leg under the upper leg. So the ukemi is the same or similar to Jujutsu style. Therefore if people very close to Jigoro Kano were performing Ukemi this way it is logical that Jigoro Kano performed/taught it this way also. No??

Is there anyone out there who can tell me when this changed and more importantly why it changed.
regards aiyotsu


I took a few lessons in Takenouchi Ryu JJ and that is how they were doing zempo kaiten. It was explained that it was for falling on rough ground, not tatami, as their art is not a "dojo" art designed for tatami. Which it defintly is not.
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#8 User is offline   bythesea 

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 08:59 PM

One thing I was told (have no idea of validity or original source) that the modern ukemi is so that you don't bang your knees together which is quite painful. Anyone else heard that?
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#9 User is offline   Taigyo 

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 09:03 PM

Well, why not dig into some of the old Judo instruction books and see what they tell you to do and if it changes over time.
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#10 User is offline   aiyotsu 

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 02:33 AM

View Postbythesea, on 12 May 2011 - 09:59 AM, said:

One thing I was told (have no idea of validity or original source) that the modern ukemi is so that you don't bang your knees together which is quite painful. Anyone else heard that?

hello bythesea, I have banged knees and it does hurt but the lower leg folded under style is the same position of the legs as adopted by tori for getting up from prone in NNK and as such the knees are well apart in fact more than yte modern Judo Zenpo Kaiten Ukemi.
Thanks
aiyotsu
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#11 User is offline   aiyotsu 

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 02:40 AM

View PostTaigyo, on 12 May 2011 - 10:03 AM, said:

Well, why not dig into some of the old Judo instruction books and see what they tell you to do and if it changes over time.

Hello Taigyo. Good suggestion. I am not sure if my books go far enough back (except those labeled Jiu jitsu). Probably most were writen in the 30's, 40s' etc. But certainly I will be looking. Thank you.
Regards
aiyotsu
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#12 User is offline   finarashi 

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 04:51 AM

View PostTaigyo, on 12 May 2011 - 12:03 AM, said:

Well, why not dig into some of the old Judo instruction books and see what they tell you to do and if it changes over time.

Quickly looking at two ealiest
Judo : Japanese physical culture : being a further exposition of jujitsu and similar arts, Arima, Sumitomo, Tokyo, Japan, Mitsumura, 1908, 116p
Judo, Yokoyama, Sakujirō (1864 - 1914); Oshima, Eisuke ; Horiguchi, Yamakichi, Tokyo, Japan, Nishōdō, 1915, 297p
Arima does not have a picture of falling (all photographs needed to be posed due to long exposure). Yokoyama has a single picture of a Judoka hitting mat with a hand. This is definetely a modern ukemi, but the picture is in a section dedicated to sidefall not forwardfall.

Generally there are pictures only of postures in early books, never on the falling bit.

:big grin: BTW should we grow mustaches. I see many early kata practioners sporting mustaches. Maybe this is where we went wrong? Also Kano had significant facial growth! :big grin:
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#13 User is offline   aiyotsu 

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 07:30 AM

View Postfinarashi, on 13 May 2011 - 05:51 PM, said:

Quickly looking at two ealiest
Judo : Japanese physical culture : being a further exposition of jujitsu and similar arts, Arima, Sumitomo, Tokyo, Japan, Mitsumura, 1908, 116p
Judo, Yokoyama, Sakujirō (1864 - 1914); Oshima, Eisuke ; Horiguchi, Yamakichi, Tokyo, Japan, Nishōdō, 1915, 297p
Arima does not have a picture of falling (all photographs needed to be posed due to long exposure). Yokoyama has a single picture of a Judoka hitting mat with a hand. This is definetely a modern ukemi, but the picture is in a section dedicated to sidefall not forwardfall.

Generally there are pictures only of postures in early books, never on the falling bit.

:big grin: BTW should we grow mustaches. I see many early kata practioners sporting mustaches. Maybe this is where we went wrong? Also Kano had significant facial growth! :big grin:
hello Finarashi, Thank you Those two books are significant absentees from my collection. I did not, as I suspected find anything older than 1930's. The discriptions of Ukemi left a lot to be desired in fact some, you would have trouble working out what to do if you had never seen ukemi or Judo. Interestingly one book had an over the opposite shoulder ukemi which it called number 2. As far as I recall it is the first I have seen in a judo text.I have not studied it but will soon as time allows.
Does Sakujiro Yokoyama's book or the other give a discription of Zenpo Kaiten in the text,which would shed light on my query.
Thank you aiyotsu
ps I would be interested in learning of photos or text in old books presented in any language
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#14 User is offline   Jihef 

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 07:52 AM

View Postaiyotsu, on 13 May 2011 - 09:30 AM, said:

ps I would be interested in learning of photos or text in old books presented in any language

Hello aiyotsu,
have you checked "Judo (Jujutsu)" by Jigoro Kano, published in english, in 1937.

I know ukemi are explained therein, and that the book is illustrated with photographs.

Since this is the only book on judo published under Kano's name while he was still alive, I guess it is safe to say that it should reflect his teachings of ukemi.

Rei,
J-F.
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#15 User is offline   aiyotsu 

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 07:59 AM

Hello I have been pondering futher on the same Zenpo kaiten Ukemi. I noticed it before this but did not analyze it at all. In the old footage as Uke rises to his feet he is already rotating to face Tori. Which if we are to be studying the principles of attack and defence, would be combatively more proficient than the modern form of rising back to Tori and rotaing 180 to face Tori
Or put the other way around the modern form seems not to conform with the principle of Maximum efficiency.
I am not trying to be flippant about this and would appreciate any information, particularly from someone who really does know.
aiyotsu.
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