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Judo as self defense? Is that the point....or is it not Rate Topic: -----

#31 User is offline   jim_jude 

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 10:34 AM

View PostTafftaz, on 10 February 2011 - 12:48 PM, said:

I am afraid that you are wrong.
Judo was not a "self defence "art.
Judo is a system of education. A "way".
Traditional Japanese jiu jitsu is a martial art. Meant to kill or maim.



From Mind Over Muscle: Writings From The Founder of Judo:

Quote

"In the past, the techniques of judo were oriented towards the martial arts. The Kodokan judo of today incorporates both the martial arts and physical education. Naturally, with its additional role to play in the advancement of physical education, concerns may be raised that judo is less effective as a martial art now than in the past, when it was practiced solely as a martial art, but that is not the case. Precisely because it is practiced as both a martial art and physical education, its true power as a martial art can be exercised. In the jujutsu of the past, which was only a martial art, if the practitioner wanted to learn to thrust, the practice of thrusting in itself was enough. But if they did not training seriously over many years, even the atemi of experts would not be completely effective...
...Since the establishment of Kodokan judo, judo has become something that should be studied not only as a method of self-defense but also as a way of training the body and cultivating the mind....
....the thorough study of defense against attack is the foundation, and the ability to train the body and cultivate the mind come from this study....
... In lower-level judo the purpose of training is to learn how to defend against attack. At this level most of the training uses bare hands only, but weapons are sometimes used...
... judo is not only training in the dojo; judo can be practiced without a partner, and there are various training methods, including punches and thrusts, kicks, as well as dodging and moving forward and back...
... If one fights in earnest, a stance in which you lower your hips, spread your legs and tilt your head forward is extremely disadvantageous. Both your face and your chest are vulnerable to your opponent's atemi. It is also difficult for you to move quickly to fend off your opponent's attack. Atemi is not used in everyday randori practice only because it is dangerous, but you must nevertheless practice with the expectation that your opponent may attack using atemi at any time...
... If your opponent strikes at you, it will be difficult for you to dodge or evade him as quickly as you would like if you have not regularly practiced doing so. When your opponent strikes at you, if you stop to consider how to evade his attack before attacking, his attack will reach you befor you have time to evade it. If you have not practiced so that your body reacts reflexively, on a daily basis, you will be vulnerable to attack...
... This is also inversely true; if you have not repeatedly practiced kata on a daily basis, your own atemi will be ineffective. :blink: No matter how well you know the vital points or how strong you have become through randori, if you do not practice kata, you will not become skillful, and a lack of skill means ineffective atemi. For this reason, practice in which you compete in earnest means training your body through randori so that you have full control over your movements. But at the same time through kata you must learn the body's vital points and practice in order to make your atemi effective...
... consistent and involved practice in kata is essential from an early age, in order to generate interest, foster skill, and allow the student to enjoy a fulfilling and rewarding pursuit of judo well into old age.



It seems that the Founder of Judo, Kano Jigoro, disagrees with you quite drastically.
Which of you should we believe as more qualified on this issue?

This post has been edited by jim_jude: 17 February 2011 - 10:42 AM

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#32 User is offline   SODO 

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 11:15 AM

View Postjim_jude, on 17 February 2011 - 10:34 AM, said:

From Mind Over Muscle: Writings From The Founder of Judo:




It seems that the Founder of Judo, Kano Jigoro, disagrees with you quite drastically.
Which of you should we believe as more qualified on this issue?


Hi Tafftaz,

don't you just love it when a beginner who knows more about "cut 'n Paste" than he does about judo tries to teach you that decades you have invested in judo were a complete waste of time because they know how to read and interpret writtings of Kano properly :big grin: :big grin: :big grin:

Maybe you and I should throw our gi away and take up something simpler, like European Tax Law or something similar because we are NEVER going to understand this judo thing :o

atb

sodo

This post has been edited by SODO: 17 February 2011 - 11:16 AM

I'm not an alcoholic, alcoholics go to meetings.

I'm a drunk, we go to parties.
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#33 User is offline   SODO 

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 11:31 AM

View Postjim_jude, on 17 February 2011 - 10:34 AM, said:

From Mind Over Muscle: Writings From The Founder of Judo:




It seems that the Founder of Judo, Kano Jigoro, disagrees with you quite drastically.
Which of you should we believe as more qualified on this issue?



Hi jim_jude,

Kano's writtings were in Japanese, even with good translations problems occur through cultural differences and the fact that some words or expressions in one language just do not exist in another combine that with a less than optimal quality of translation and it leads to confusion.

It helps if you have knowledge of the subject and it's history, at the time kano's books were written the terms judo and ju jutsu were more or less interchangeable, before "Kodokan Judo" judo did not exist so the martial arts refered to are ju jutsu the4 fore runner of judo. also a very important word in the text was T

Quote

he Kodokan judo of today incorporates both the martial arts and physical education.


which means absorbed or based upon into the system not that the system is a martial art.

f.e. Soccer is based on tribal celebrations after a battle were the youn men played footbal with the decapitated heads of their conquered rivals, Rugby etc.. have a similar history but wouuld not be described as martial arts.

Another typical mistake ist to assume that a martial art is a form of self defence system, it is not it is a combat system.

This stuff has been discussed enough here on the various forums butr if you are really interested then go to the history forum where some very capable people like NBK, Sam and JonZ to name just a few are very competent historical researchers and do a professional job of interpreting historical events and texts and putting them in the right perspective.

atb

sodo

This post has been edited by SODO: 17 February 2011 - 11:31 AM

I'm not an alcoholic, alcoholics go to meetings.

I'm a drunk, we go to parties.
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#34 User is offline   Tafftaz 

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 01:14 PM

View PostSODO, on 17 February 2011 - 11:31 AM, said:

Hi jim_jude,

Kano's writtings were in Japanese, even with good translations problems occur through cultural differences and the fact that some words or expressions in one language just do not exist in another combine that with a less than optimal quality of translation and it leads to confusion.

It helps if you have knowledge of the subject and it's history, at the time kano's books were written the terms judo and ju jutsu were more or less interchangeable, before "Kodokan Judo" judo did not exist so the martial arts refered to are ju jutsu the4 fore runner of judo. also a very important word in the text was T

which means absorbed or based upon into the system not that the system is a martial art.

f.e. Soccer is based on tribal celebrations after a battle were the youn men played footbal with the decapitated heads of their conquered rivals, Rugby etc.. have a similar history but wouuld not be described as martial arts.

Another typical mistake ist to assume that a martial art is a form of self defence system, it is not it is a combat system.

This stuff has been discussed enough here on the various forums butr if you are really interested then go to the history forum where some very capable people like NBK, Sam and JonZ to name just a few are very competent historical researchers and do a professional job of interpreting historical events and texts and putting them in the right perspective.

atb

sodo



:manoyes: Nice post SODO.
jim jude I bow down to your superior experience on all matters judo.
Obviously what I have been practising all these years wrong.
Shame on me.
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#35 User is offline   Tafftaz 

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 01:26 PM

View Postjim_jude, on 17 February 2011 - 10:34 AM, said:

From Mind Over Muscle: Writings From The Founder of Judo:




It seems that the Founder of Judo, Kano Jigoro, disagrees with you quite drastically.
Which of you should we believe as more qualified on this issue?



Okay.
Can you tell me where in my post I said that there is no self defence aspect of judo???
Can you tell me where I said that self defence is not practised in judo??
What I said is that Judo is not a "self defence" art. Judo is so much more.
Answer me this, do you practise Kime no kata, Goshin jutsu no kata,alongside your other aspects of judo practise?
You need to read what you pasted a bit more carefully. The first line of your post includes
"The Kodokan judo of today incorporates both the martial arts and physical education."
The third line from my post that you found to be so totally wrong
"Judo is a system of education. A "way"."

I see the word "education" in both lines.
I have read kodokan judo,canon of judo and many others time and again and nowhere is judo mentioned as purely a self defence art.
Do your homework before jumping into a thread feet first.
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#36 User is offline   judoka_uk 

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 01:30 PM

View Postjim_jude, on 17 February 2011 - 10:34 AM, said:

From Mind Over Muscle: Writings From The Founder of Judo:

It seems that the Founder of Judo, Kano Jigoro, disagrees with you quite drastically.
Which of you should we believe as more qualified on this issue?

Your quotes seem to agree with Tafftaz rather than disagreeing with him.
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#37 User is offline   jim_jude 

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 11:46 PM

View PostTafftaz, on 17 February 2011 - 06:26 AM, said:

Okay.
Can you tell me where in my post I said that there is no self defence aspect of judo???
Can you tell me where I said that self defence is not practised in judo??
What I said is that Judo is not a "self defence" art. Judo is so much more.


I quoted your post directly.
And I quoted Kano directly. Are you confused by this?
If you say

Quote

"Judo was not a 'self defence' art"

and Kano says

Quote

...Since the establishment of Kodokan judo, judo has become something that should be studied not only as a method of self-defense but also as a way of training the body and cultivating the mind....
....the thorough study of defense against attack is the foundation, and the ability to train the body and cultivate the mind come from this study....


I would say that you are wrong.
You say that Judo is not a self defense art, it is so much more.
Kano says that Judo is not only a method of self-defense but also a way of training the body & cultivating the mind, and that self-defense is the very foundation of everything that Judo is. For some reason, you seem to believe that Judo being a self-defense art and then your "so much more" are somehow mutually exclusive...

I'm led to believe that the "judo" that YOU practice is not a self-defense art. Kano's Judo, however, is obviously a different story.

This post has been edited by jim_jude: 17 February 2011 - 11:46 PM

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#38 User is offline   jim_jude 

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 11:50 PM

View PostSODO, on 17 February 2011 - 04:15 AM, said:

Hi Tafftaz,

don't you just love it when a beginner who knows more about "cut 'n Paste" than he does about judo...


Actually, I transcribed that directly from my copy of Mind Over Muscle.

Don't ya just love when someone totally fails at being a smart-ass? :big grin:

Quote

tries to teach you that decades you have invested in judo were a complete waste of time because they know how to read and interpret writtings of Kano properly :big grin: :big grin: :big grin:


Man. Hyperbole much?


Quote

Maybe you and I should throw our gi away and take up something simpler, like European Tax Law or something similar because we are NEVER going to understand this judo thing :o

atb

sodo


Yes, I think that is exactly what you should do.

This post has been edited by jim_jude: 17 February 2011 - 11:58 PM

"He wrapped himself in quotations as a beggar would enfold himself in the purple of Emperors."
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#39 User is offline   Tafftaz 

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 12:29 AM

View Postjim_jude, on 17 February 2011 - 11:46 PM, said:

I quoted your post directly.
And I quoted Kano directly. Are you confused by this?
If you say
and Kano says


I would say that you are wrong.
You say that Judo is not a self defense art, it is so much more.
Kano says that Judo is not only a method of self-defense but also a way of training the body & cultivating the mind, and that self-defense is the very foundation of everything that Judo is. For some reason, you seem to believe that Judo being a self-defense art and then your "so much more" are somehow mutually exclusive...

I'm led to believe that the "judo" that YOU practice is not a self-defense art. Kano's Judo, however, is obviously a different story.



:lol:
Nice one.
I never for one second stated that self defence is not a PART of judo.
Do you doubt that judo is a system of education? A way?
I practise kodokan judo as close as I possibly am able to Kano's ideals. All aspects FYI. Fair success in shiai,represented my country, kata et al.
So therefore I must be confused by your post.
My judo cannot be anywhere near as good as yours, with your 12 months of experience. So I again bow to your superior stance in these matters.

What "judo" do you practice by the way?

This post has been edited by Tafftaz: 18 February 2011 - 12:39 AM

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#40 User is offline   jim_jude 

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 12:33 AM

View PostTafftaz, on 17 February 2011 - 05:29 PM, said:

:lol:
Nice one.
I practise kodokan judo as close as I possibly am able to Kano's ideals.


Considering what you have had to say so far, I somehow doubt that.

Quote

All aspects FYI. Fair success in shiai, kata et al.
So therefore I must be confused by your post.

What "judo" do you practice by the way?


I guess it must be some kind of judo completely alien to yours, as we consider it a "self-defense art".
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#41 User is offline   judoka_uk 

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 12:40 AM

Quote

"In the past, the techniques of judo were oriented towards the martial arts. The Kodokan judo of today incorporates both the martial arts and physical education. Naturally, with its additional role to play in the advancement of physical education, concerns may be raised that judo is less effective as a martial art now than in the past, when it was practiced solely as a martial art, but that is not the case. Precisely because it is practiced as both a martial art and physical education, its true power as a martial art can be exercised. In the jujutsu of the past, which was only a martial art, if the practitioner wanted to learn to thrust, the practice of thrusting in itself was enough. But if they did not training seriously over many years, even the atemi of experts would not be completely effective...
...Since the establishment of Kodokan judo, judo has become something that should be studied not only as a method of self-defense but also as a way of training the body and cultivating the mind....
....the thorough study of defense against attack is the foundation, and the ability to train the body and cultivate the mind come from this study....
... In lower-level judo the purpose of training is to learn how to defend against attack. At this level most of the training uses bare hands only, but weapons are sometimes used...
... judo is not only training in the dojo; judo can be practiced without a partner, and there are various training methods, including punches and thrusts, kicks, as well as dodging and moving forward and back...
... If one fights in earnest, a stance in which you lower your hips, spread your legs and tilt your head forward is extremely disadvantageous. Both your face and your chest are vulnerable to your opponent's atemi. It is also difficult for you to move quickly to fend off your opponent's attack. Atemi is not used in everyday randori practice only because it is dangerous, but you must nevertheless practice with the expectation that your opponent may attack using atemi at any time...
... If your opponent strikes at you, it will be difficult for you to dodge or evade him as quickly as you would like if you have not regularly practiced doing so. When your opponent strikes at you, if you stop to consider how to evade his attack before attacking, his attack will reach you befor you have time to evade it. If you have not practiced so that your body reacts reflexively, on a daily basis, you will be vulnerable to attack...
... This is also inversely true; if you have not repeatedly practiced kata on a daily basis, your own atemi will be ineffective. :blink: No matter how well you know the vital points or how strong you have become through randori, if you do not practice kata, you will not become skillful, and a lack of skill means ineffective atemi. For this reason, practice in which you compete in earnest means training your body through randori so that you have full control over your movements. But at the same time through kata you must learn the body's vital points and practice in order to make your atemi effective...
... consistent and involved practice in kata is essential from an early age, in order to generate interest, foster skill, and allow the student to enjoy a fulfilling and rewarding pursuit of judo well into old age.


I have highlighted in red the sections that indicate that Judo's techniques had origins in arts that were designed for self-defence - Jujutsu. And that Kano is clearly drawing a line between the heritage both technical and historical of Judo, note the term Judo is not unique to Kano and is much older. Differentiating between the self-defence orientated techniques and arts of Jujutsu and the pedagogical and developmental orientation of the techniques and art of Judo.

So that while the techniques of Judo can be used in self-defence and self-defence is one aspect of the whole of Judo. It is not the primary purpose, it has never been the primary purpose and never will be the primary purpose of Judo. The primary purpose of Judo has been, is and remains moral and physical education.
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#42 User is offline   bythesea 

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 12:43 AM

View Postjudoka_uk, on 17 February 2011 - 04:40 PM, said:

So that while the techniques of Judo can be used in self-defence and self-defence is one aspect of the whole of Judo. It is not the primary purpose, it has never been the primary purpose and never will be the primary purpose of Judo. The primary purpose of Judo has been, is and remains moral and physical education.


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#43 User is offline   Tafftaz 

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 12:46 AM

View Postjim_jude, on 18 February 2011 - 12:33 AM, said:

Considering what you have had to say so far, I somehow doubt that.



I guess it must be some kind of judo completely alien to yours, as we consider it a "self-defense art".


Fair play that was quick.
Where are you from if you do not mind me asking? I would love to come and practise the judo that you do.
It sounds so much better than what the rest of us are practising.
Also ,you did not reply to my question " do you not consider judo as a form of education?"
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#44 User is offline   jim_jude 

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 01:27 AM

View PostTafftaz, on 17 February 2011 - 05:46 PM, said:

Fair play that was quick.
Where are you from if you do not mind me asking?


I'm from Seattle originally but I'm currently living in California.

Quote

I would love to come and practise the judo that you do.


Oh, yes. I'm sure that you "would love to come and practise" with me... :wub:

Ah, the Interwebs never get old, do they?

Quote

It sounds so much better than what the rest of us are practising.


Yeah, you know, it kinda does. But I'd rather you didn't "come and practice" with me, you seem to have a bit of an attitude problem.

Quote

Also ,you did not reply to my question " do you not consider judo as a form of education?"


Of course I do. Whenever there is a teacher-student dynamic, there is always education going on.
As far as I'm concerned, Judo is many things: martial (& self-defense) art, method of physical education, moral and ethical practice, and the list goes on. For me, none of these is better or more important than the others, they should all be cultivated. If Kano wasn't interested in self-defense first & foremost, & if Judo was really only about ethical training and physical education, he could have read students some Aristotle or Mill or Shobogenzo while they jumped rope & did situps in gym class.

It's totally inaccurate to say

Quote

I am afraid that you are wrong.
Judo was not a "self defence "art.
Judo is a system of education. A "way".
Traditional Japanese jiu jitsu is a martial art. Meant to kill or maim.


Judo IS quite certainly a martial & self-defense art.
AND it is so much more.
Judo remains a great martial and self-defense art whether you practice judo as a self-defense art or not.
"He wrapped himself in quotations as a beggar would enfold himself in the purple of Emperors."
~ Rudyard Kipling
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#45 User is offline   judoka_uk 

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 01:31 AM

View Postjim_jude, on 18 February 2011 - 01:27 AM, said:

Oh, yes. I'm sure that you "would love to come and practise" with me... :wub:

Ah, the Interwebs never get old, do they?

Yeah, you know, it kinda does. But I'd rather you didn't "come and practice" with me, you seem to have a bit of an attitude problem.

Careful now. Tazztaz is no keyboard warrior. He can back his talk up on the mat.
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