It's a single lapel across the throat choke from stacking ukes guard, I'm interested in what this choke is called and if anyone knows the details to it. As a certain BJJ club are having quite a bit of success with it and seem to be keeping the details of exactly how it works under wraps, ie whats stopping uke from pushing the hand off the throat etc.
This post has been edited by TonyOtoshi: 13 March 2010 - 04:11 PM
It's something similar to a Michou Choke. (That's almost definatly the wrong spelling and maybe even the wrong word, but it sounds something like that.) I learned it from a Gracie self defence instructor. I only use it to regain my posture once it's broken, only two people have tapped from it and they were both whitebelts.
I'd like to point out that this is a blackbelt using the technique. I can almost assure you that it wouldn't work the same in a novice division. I've actually been caught with an armbar twice trying this choke in practice and I've used tomoe nage from my guard while it was attempted on myself, so be careful if you will try to use it.
Perhaps one of the more experienced BJJ practitioners will know the name.
Simply but very effective choke if done right.
You dont really choke with your arm but instead you lift your opponent from the belt and set your weight on uke. While you are stacking him your hand is also choking him. I think that's one of the reasons uke cant remove the hand.
Of course these are just my assumption based on my own experiences.
You can defend the choke easily if you know its coming but if the hand is on your throat and tori is starting to stack you then its starting to get late for the escape.
I think?....
This post has been edited by Tomi: 13 March 2010 - 04:46 PM
Simply but very effective choke.
You dont really choke with your arm but instead you lift your opponent from the belt and set your weight on uke. While you are stacking him your hand is also choking him. I think that's one of the reasons uke cant remove the hand.
I think?....
I'd like to point out that this is a blackbelt using the technique. I can almost assure you that it wouldn't work the same in a novice division.
I've seen that same choke wipe out the blue belt division at a comp last week. Also seem it work at purple so I know it's more a matter of using the correct technique and having the right awnsers to the defences.
Well I defend this just by pushing the elbow and then simply escape the stack. It doesnt matter if he stacks you if the hand isnt on the right place choking you. Just mark the arm. You can even do juji if the tori lets the arm hang there like free willy.
This post has been edited by Tomi: 13 March 2010 - 04:56 PM
Well I defend this just by pushing the elbow and then simply escape the stack. It doesnt matter if he stacks you if the hand isnt on the right place choking you. Just mark the arm. You can even do juji if the tori lets the arm hang there like free willy.
How can anyone be armbarred from that stack/choke combo? The arm doing the choke grabbing the single lapel is on the outside, and the other hand was on the outside grabbing the pants to aid the stack. Even if you left one arm in as if baiting a triangle I still dont see how anyone with a basic knowledge of controlling the hips can get caught with an armbar.
The more I think about this move the more it seems that if you don't hit the choke, the pass is clearly there, and just putting your hand on toris elbow to stop it, that doesn't add up. The guy he done it on is a black belt, if he couldn't stop it by putting is hand on the elbow then I'm sure the technique goes a little deeper than that.
You can defend the choke by pushing the elbow away from your throat while shrimping (you dont just hold the elbow..). It doesn't mean if you know how to defend the choke that you can do it every time and in every situation. Heck I know how to defend triangle choke still I get caught by it sometimes.
This post has been edited by Tomi: 13 March 2010 - 06:17 PM
You can defend the choke by pushing the elbow away from your throat while shrimping (you dont just hold the elbow..). It doesn't mean if you know how to defend the choke that you can do it every time and in every situation. Heck I know how to defend triangle choke still I get caught by it sometimes.
Theres no way you can shrimp when your hips are stacked like that.
Do whatever helps you to get away. My point was, you can defend the choke by pushing the elbow away from your throat.
Not by pulling but pushing it upward so the danger of the choke is gone. After that you have to figure how to escape the upcoming pin. But if your getting stacked already then its too late for magic tricks.
The choke wont work if you control the hand.
This post has been edited by Tomi: 15 March 2010 - 06:14 PM
Do whatever helps you to get away. My point was, you can defend the choke by pushing the elbow away from your throat.
Not by pulling but pushing it upward so the danger of the choke is gone. After that you have to figure how to escape the upcoming pin. But if your getting stacked already then its too late for magic tricks.
The choke wont work if you control the hand.
Have you ever been at the end of this choke being applied by a skilled person? It is very, very hard to push the elbow away. You sound like the defense is easy, but we can say things similar for, lets say, Kata-gatame: all you have to do is to use your own elbow to create space so that there is no strong pressure on your neck and then just roll backwards and escape the position... Easily said than accomplished! (in fact, I'm very good at defending kata-gatame because I know all the right pointers to apply it effectively, so I deny them to my training partner... But it is far from easy to escape).
Now, lets get back to this choke, which is simply Katate-jime, not even a variation, just plain old (very old) Katate-jime:
If you get to control your opponent's hips, it is very hard for him to remove your elbow. You must, when you feel that there is the risk of his opponent trying this technique, to immediately grab his elbow to prevent him from even getting it down, after the point that your strength isn't enough to allow it to sink in. Use both hands if needed and try to avoid having your hips controlled. The best answer for this choke is not the elbow control, since it ends up in a disadvantageous strength struggle (gravity and lever physics are against you), the best answer is not to have your hips controlled. BJJ masters make it almost impossible to control their hips, they will bounce in a backwards roll, then back in a forward, sideways roll and get you in their guards again... Even if you are not as good in maneuvering like that, a backwards roll may save you if you do not wait to try it too late...
EDIT: I was really trying to avoid commenting this but their level of tachiwaza IS RIDICULOUSLY NON-EXISTENT!!! They are both black-belts! Is the level of BJJ black-belts the same as Judo blue belts in tachiwaza (Just kidding, please! It is just that I couldn't help having this assertion backwards!!! I know it is not true, it is really just a narrow joke based on this single fight.)
This post has been edited by loudenvier: 15 March 2010 - 08:20 PM
I dont really care who is right, I just gave my opinion based on my experiences and as I said its not going to work if he is already starting to stack you.
I never said it would be easy...
You said "You must, when you feel that there is the risk of his opponent trying this technique, to immediately grab his elbow to prevent him from even getting it down" that was pretty much what I was trying to say.
About kata gatame, yes easily said than accomplished but still reachable.
Well I would still secure the arm first, and if he gets past my guard then at least I wouldnt be in choke hold. Eventhough I see myself as a pretty slick on the ground still Im not BJJ master as neither is the topic started I suppose, so I cant do some hula hula on the ground while being choked.
But Im learning so maby the day will come eventhough Im pretty stiff. I better start to stretch more.
And backward roll wont help you if you are being stacked, all tori's weight is on you and furthermore you are licking your own toes.
-You have to do it before tori gets all his weight on you, so how does it differ from removing the elbow early before stacking?
This post has been edited by Tomi: 15 March 2010 - 09:19 PM
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