[radzfman]

Lately at my dojo they have been discouraging the use of leg attacks, i.e. my favorite katagaruma, but according to the IJF I can pull this in sequence of attack i.e. kouchi gari or ippon seonage to katagaruma.

Im training at a highly competitve dojo and the irony we were warming up with morotegari(double leg takedown) drills!

I am not one of their top competitors but I figure wouldnt they want their judokas to be familiar with these combinations or defense against them? I am confused.

[Armlock]

Sorry to say but I think everyone is confused. Katagaruma was my favorite throw too but I have abandoned it. I am still looking for close substitutes such as yoko otoshi but I'm just staying away from touching the legs because the whole issue is just too nuanced.

[Eway]

How do you mean discouraging? Are they not letting you work on uchikomis or nagekomis? Are they not allowing you to do moving set ups or a series of techniques that ends with those techniques? During randori, are you being criticized for entering a seoi and when your opponent defends, completing with a kata guruma? Who is criticizing you? Your opponent or your sensei. If it's your opponent, maybe they are just reacting that way because they are upset that the were thrown. Just a thought.

A few weeks ago, I was working with a guy during randori. He had a double grips on one side and I went for te guruma. One of the senior officials from my area was on the mat. He didn't see the lead up, but he saw the attack. He questioned it, but once I mentioned the grips, he just said, "Ah, okay."

Regardless, I think this might be something you should talk to your sensei about.

[radzfman]

Eway, on Mar 10 2010, 06:28 PM, said:

How do you mean discouraging? Are they not letting you work on uchikomis or nagekomis? Are they not allowing you to do moving set ups or a series of techniques that ends with those techniques? During randori, are you being criticized for entering a seoi and when your opponent defends, completing with a kata guruma? Who is criticizing you? Your opponent or your sensei. If it's your opponent, maybe they are just reacting that way because they are upset that the were thrown. Just a thought.

A few weeks ago, I was working with a guy during randori. He had a double grips on one side and I went for te guruma. One of the senior officials from my area was on the mat. He didn't see the lead up, but he saw the attack. He questioned it, but once I mentioned the grips, he just said, "Ah, okay."

Regardless, I think this might be something you should talk to your sensei about.

They are moe or less being discouraging aboutit. I directly asked my sense when it was legal. He said first, if you have a direct attack in which your legs are wrapped or counter involving when the legs are wrapped in- i.e. uchimata,

What was obvious is that you cant attack first with a leg attack.

[Matthew Jones]

I don't know why anyone would ever try a leg attack even in a sequence when it can cause you to immediately lose...

They should make the penalty for an inappropriate leg attack (ie not in a sequence) a shido, why so harsh, especially if you still "allow" the technique? It's just silly.

[DavidB]

The problem with using a leg attack in a sequence is that any attacks that are precursors to the leg attack must be actual attacks and not feints, as far as I can tell. So if you are just pretending to go for the first few throws just to set up the leg attack you will still be called for the penalty. Personally I just won't be going for any leg grabs. Not that I did before but now I will be more mindful.

Dave

[bythesea]

Matthew Jones, on Mar 11 2010, 01:07 PM, said:

I don't know why anyone would ever try a leg attack even in a sequence when it can cause you to immediately lose...

They should make the penalty for an inappropriate leg attack (ie not in a sequence) a shido, why so harsh, especially if you still "allow" the technique? It's just silly.

I won't comment on the merit of the rules change, but in thinking about your point, my theory would be that if they had just made it a shido, many would still use the techniques, and just take the shido. Morote gari for example, if done right, is probably going to be an ippon. So a shido wouldn't matter would it? I'm not clear on all the rules, but a shido wouldn't 'lower' the ippon score would it? If not, then it would be worth getting the shido. Hansoku make would seem to be an attempt to completely abolish the technique's use, not just discourage it.

edit: I searched the IJF site to find their reasoning, but I wasn't able to find anything super specific, other than this quote from one of their docs on the rules changes (as to why):

"The IJF’s wish is to defend fundamental judo values.
Within this scope IJF particularly devotes itself to preserve and develop education, physic and mental trumps of Judo.
« Judo is a physic and mental education system »."

Not exactly super clear, but that's the best I could find. I would interpret that as they felt that certain techniques were distorting judo competition, so they got rid of them.

That's just my interpretation and theory. I suppose there could have been other factors, but you'd have to be privy to their meetings and personal discussions to truly know.

This post has been edited by bythesea: 11 March 2010 - 09:34 PM

[Eway]

Matthew Jones, on Mar 11 2010, 01:07 PM, said:

I don't know why anyone would ever try a leg attack even in a sequence when it can cause you to immediately lose...

The short answer is because they want to win. If you know you went in for a sincere (sincere being the key word here) attack that was stifled, why wouldn't you follow through with the next most obvious technique? For instance, a seoi nage into a kata guruma seems like an easy sell to me. If the officials want to give you hansokumake, they have to have a conference. The referee, by himself, cannot just arbitrarily decide that your initial attack was not sincere.

As for why so harsh, I'm pretty sure bythesea hit the nail on the head. They want to eliminate certain throws as a direct attack, not just discourage them.

[Yariman]

If you want to succeed in judo you must practice katsugiwaza.