[Tiltmeister]

Hi all!

I am a beginner in competition and having some difficulties in how to set up my Uchi Mata in competitions. It is my favorite throw and I would be thrilled if someone could give me a tip on how to set it up effectly in competitions. Videos would be much appriciated!

Sorry for my bad english! :)

[Cichorei Kano]

Tiltmeister, on Mar 10 2010, 10:09 PM, said:

Hi all!

I am a beginner in competition and having some difficulties in how to set up my Uchi Mata in competitions. It is my favorite throw and I would be thrilled if someone could give me a tip on how to set it up effectly in competitions. Videos would be much appriciated!

Sorry for my bad english! :)

You have already given the answer yourself as to why you have difficulties with uchi-mata in competition. May I ask who gave you idea that in order to succeed in throwing someone with uchi-mata, you would first need to "set up" for uchi-mata ?

If you have a conversation with someone, do you then first "set up" the questions the other will ask so that you can give reponses you first determined without even having a question ? Do you not see how absurd your question is ?

Your uchi-mata fails because you do not know how to properly perform uchi-mata, because you do not understand how and when to perform a technique. I bet that if your opponent simply blocks his arms that you have no way to go.

You need to learn the same in judo as you learn in conversation: you listen to the question, analyze it, and formulate a response. In judo competition, you need to learn to feel what your opponent is doing, analyze what he is doing and formulate a response. That response is not uchi-mata, but that response will depend on what your opponent is doing, what your opponent let's you feel, how he moves, whether he blocks his arms or not, whether he masters tai-sabaki, whether if you pull him forward he moves forward or he resists, or he steps over, or he counters, or whatever. Every response depends on the question. No response exists without the question being asked.

Good luck !

[Tiltmeister]

@ Cichorei Kano: Thanx for replying. I understand and totally agree in what you say about me needing to learn to feel what my opponent is doing and for me this is very difficult and I guess this will come with more experience and training. Or at least I hope so :)

The reason I ask about the Uchi Mata is becaus this is the throw that I feel I like best while training throws. But when it comes to a randori I can not get close enough to my opponent or he easaly see what I am trying to do. What I met by setting up Uchi Mata is if you guys have some sort of move or combination to get in a good position to throw with a Uchi Mata? I had some success using Uchi Mata as a counter to when my opponent is attacking with O Soto Gari.

:)

[SODO]

Hi Tiltmeisterm,

Quote

I had some success using Uchi Mata as a counter to when my opponent is attacking with O Soto Gari.

That is exactly wht CK is trying to tell you, you used uchi mata as a response to the situation and did not try to force the situation to give yourself an entrance into uchi mata.

There is a very big difference

atb

sodo

[Tiltmeister]

So I guess the lesson I learned from this thread is that I shall not focus on one technique but gain as much knowleg about all techniques that this will come naturally and dependent on the situation?

[Judo Tom]

ck is right but i have to say that I think people will learn to get what ck is talking about if they are shown some 'set up's you should not try a set up but learning what happens in randori and drilling it in steps and sequences can help you get to the point where you dont need it faster IMO

I would suggest picking up the book "atacking Judo" by Kashiwazaki. and the uchimata book also in the master class series

[ptnippon]

Learning the concept of debana and when to attempt a throw can only come from many, many hours of randori. There are no shortcuts to this process. I am a firm believer that thinking you can "set up" a good judoka is a mistake. There is always going to be judoka one step ahead of you. Judo is about feel, reacting and spontaneous attacks. Again this can only come from randori and to a lesser extent, shiai.

You don't "set up" girls to get them to go out with you do you? At least I hope not.

[Tiltmeister]

ptnippon, on Mar 10 2010, 05:30 PM, said:

Learning the concept of debana and when to attempt a throw can only come from many, many hours of randori. There are no shortcuts to this process. I am a firm believer that thinking you can "set up" a good judoka is a mistake. There is always going to be judoka one step ahead of you. Judo is about feel, reacting and spontaneous attacks. Again this can only come from randori and to a lesser extent, shiai.

You don't "set up" girls to get them to go out with you do you? At least I hope not.

Yes, I totally agree with what you and CK are saying, but dont you guys ever have a drill of pulling or do a movement in a way to get a reaction/movment from your opponment so you can take him/her down with your strongest technique? I feel from the training with ppl at my level that if I had some drill or setup I could more easily get in a position were I can take them with ie uchi mata...

When you guys go against other judokas do u come into the randori with no gameplan and with no idea of what to do? You just 'feel' and do what comes naturally depending on the situation?

But what about ppl at my level who want to learn this? Everytime I go out without a gameplan I usally end up on my back.

Not to worry about the girls, I am always a gentleman.

This post has been edited by Tiltmeister: 10 March 2010 - 04:56 PM

[SODO]

Hi Tiltmeister,

Quote

Yes, I totally agree with what you and CK are saying, but dont you guys ever have a drill of pulling or do a movement in a way to get a reaction/movment from your opponment so you can take him/her down with your strongest technique?

Yes and no, of course we practice control of our partner and how to lead him into a position and he is doing the same, the point is not to be fixed on a particular throw.

Quote

I feel from the training with ppl at my level that if I had some drill or setup I could more easily get in a position were I can take them with ie uchi mata...

That is the way most people think, in the beginning. mainly because you only know one or two throws so you do not have muchg choice, I know it is easy to say but you have will to be patient.

Quote

When you guys go against other judokas do u come into the randori with no gameplan and with no idea of what to do? You just 'feel' and do what comes naturally depending on the situation?

Exactly

Quote

But what about ppl at my level who want to learn this? Everytime I go out without a gameplan I usally end up on my back.

That can happen to any of us

Quote

Not to worry about the girls, I am always a gentleman.

but are you a gentleman with or without a plan


atb

sodo

[Still learning]

Tiltmeister, on Mar 10 2010, 01:09 PM, said:

Hi all!

I am a beginner in competition and having some difficulties in how to set up my Uchi Mata in competitions. It is my favorite throw and I would be thrilled if someone could give me a tip on how to set it up effectly in competitions. Videos would be much appriciated!

Sorry for my bad english! :)

We had the pleasure of practising this technique with Inoue last year. He never talked about any set up, just proper grips.

You may find the attached useful however.

http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded

[FWJudo]

I don’t think that you have to leave it completely to chance as much as that. I concur completely with the not “setting up” analogy. When you conceptualize that you are “setting something up”, I think that you are generally using wasted motion in order to achieve a goal that will probably not unfold the way you want it to. More than that, you should start right from the beginning of your career thinking about renraku waza or combinations, whereby each of your movements has a purpose and a chance for a successful technique, rather than expending energy to try to coax someone into a desired response with no potential benefit from your first movement. These concepts are really closely related to each other, so I understand the confusion between the two.

Having said that, I do believe that it’s wise to analyze a given technique and attempt to learn it in context. This may at least give you a baseline of understanding for common action/reaction scenarios and a middle ground to start from. Given any technique, I use a general format that goes something like this:

1. Understand the “classical” technique. This is generally the middle ground application that gives you the conceptual understanding of why it exists. Practice until you have a reasonably solid understanding. It doesn’t have to be perfect. If you wait for perfection, you’ll never move past this stage and it will never become usable to you.

2. Put the classical technique under movement to give it context. You can begin this by simply having uke step forward and backward, side to side and circle. I use a combination of directional throwing exercises for this purpose.

3. Begin to understand the variations that exist for the technique. With uchi mata, there are quite a few. It’s a good example to start with because your attacking leg can either touch uke’s far inner thigh, go straight up the middle or hit the close thigh or even close side calf. Each of these variations requires different turning and lifting along the three planes, horizontal, vertical lift and rotation that go into the throw.

4. Add a few gripping variations. Try a cross lapel/sleeve grip, or other grip to add some variety so that you’re not stuck having to get a dominant or standard right side grip before you begin the throw.

5. Learn the supporting techniques leading into and departing out of the throw. This is where your question actually begins to get answered (sorry that there are so many steps before you get here, but that’s the nature of judo). For example, you may attempt a ko ouchi gari and have uke do a simple step back reaction to see how it opens his body for uchi mata. You will also feel the direction of movement and understand that you may need a replacement step, chasing step or “fencing step” attack rather than a forward or backward pivot to enter. Here is where you begin to build the understanding of movement in context and how it relates to tai sabaki, kuzushi, tsukuri and kake and their relationship to each other. For a technique leading out of it, you may choose something as simple as ko soto gake. In combination with uchi mata, this is sometimes known as “the switch”. Start by beginning the throwing process for uchi mata and have uke perform a very common “sit back” defense that you “switch” to ko soto gake. It’s a popular technique out of uchi mata and will be a good action/reaction exercise to start with. And, although simple, it’s used at some pretty high levels of competition, so you’ll be able to use it for a long time. As time goes on, you’ll add the more common reactions such as stiff arming, circling, etc. I should throw in here, that each of your opening techniques should be valid, true attempts at attack to get legitimate reactions. If you don’t get a reaction, your opening technique should be successful. This is the subtlety that differentiates if from a “set up”. This is also where a good training partner really comes in handy. One of my old coaches used to say that we would only get as good as our partners allowed us to become.

To this study, you can then add defenses, counters, escapes, etc. In this case, variations of uchi mata sukashi, etc. I think I’ll keep this answer more along the lines of offense rather than defense, however.

Judo Tom gave you a good reference with Attacking Judo. It pieces together several of the action/reaction choices for a number of techniques. It’s a good reference, but it’s a good idea to build a notebook of your own experiences, as well.

Good luck.

[bythesea]

I don't know if you've experienced this, but I have, and I suspect it's a pretty common one: When you first start judo, you know NOTHING. You have no choice but to go into randori armed with ukemi, and maybe one or two very hazy ideas of a basic waza. You actually do great. Since you have nothing to work with, there is nothing clouding your mind -- your only choice is to try something. Then, you begin to develop your skills, and suddenly you have no luck any longer, and you seem to hit an invisible wall. Part of that is because people are harder on you in randori, but I think mostly it's because you leave the blissful state of ignorance. From then on your goal is to build all this knowledge and skill, so that you can 'forget it' in randori, and go back to being the intuitive person you were before you were all fogged up with judo knowledge.

Judo seems to provide a systematic approach to this journey; a cycle of 'offline', and 'online' learning. Offline is uchi komi, waza instruction/demonstration, moving uchi komi, nage komi, situational drills, etc. This is like practicing the scales on a piano. You are trying to not just learn these skills, but incorporate them into your body's repertoire of skills you can do 'unconsciously'. Then, you go online -- randori. Here, you try to be free, and creative, and react to the moment. If you approach randori with thinking, or doubt, you basically get nowhere. Removing that doubt, and being able to react intuitively, and with precision, decisively, and rapidly -- basically, to use maximum efficiency, both mentally and physically -- is the essence of judo. So, at first, your only hope is to be diligent, and focused in your offline work, and endeavor to do your online work in as free a state as possible. When you begin judo, this is easy, because you know nothing. It's easy to be free -- blissfully ignorant. It takes a long time to return to that state during randori, and it comes in bits and pieces, slowly over time. The more I accepted this idea, the better I got. But, it's very difficult to do in actuality -- to really accept it, and not try to think your way through judo. Ego, desire to 'win', desire not to fail, desire not to look stupid, and simply not being physically gifted can all stand in the way of that. It just takes a lot of time. After quite a bit of work, I feel like I'm still flogging around with this basic challenge. Sure, I might have the trappings of progress -- a few good throws here and there, a good attitude; but, even after hundreds and hundreds of hours, I still am working on that challenge (and mostly failing).

Finally, in regards to set ups, CK and ptnippon say it pretty simply, so I'll just add this snippet from Attacking Judo by Kashiwazaki and Nakanishi:

Quote

Judo does not consist of isolated attacks. As one experienced teacher has written: 'It is a continuous combination of realistic attacks [my interpretation: 'realistic' means not feints] which concentrate the entire mind and body, exerting all one's powers, spontaneously varying and combining attacks.'

The better a player you become, the more equal the abilities of the opponent, the more difficult it is to throw your opponent with a single attack...

...Accordingly, rather than wait for a chance to set up your techniques during a fight, you need a type of judo which creates its own opprtunities. In other words, you need the ability to draw out from your opponent the type of movement you want him or her to make by setting up your technique using a combination [note: setting up your TECHNIQUE, not setting up your opponent]. Of course, it's no good combining techniques thoughtlessly. You have to put together techniques, taking into account your opponent's movements, reactions, and in which direction their strength lies.

I don't know if any of this is that helpful, but I'll just end my blabbering with the basic idea: judo is really hard at first... and it pretty much stays that way. lol. Just practice, practice, practice -- but be mindful of your effort, and creative, and free in your execution as best as you can. At least that is my personal goal. I wish I could say I live up to that on regular basis...

cheers

edit (just to add one more thing): a while back, I added this quote from Taigyo of this forum to my signature, because I think it really encapsulates the basic idea I'm trying to make above:

"...knowing this stuff in your head is not enough, to really do it you have to know it in your butt."

To me, that says it all.

This post has been edited by bythesea: 10 March 2010 - 08:23 PM