[bmac]

The federal judges Commission informs:

http://www.judobund....es/details/1142

[wdax]

This is from the german judo federation.....

Nach den ersten beiden großen Turnieren, dem Masters in Suwon/Korea und dem Grand Slam in Paris haben sich Interpretationen des einseitigen Fassens durchgesetzt:

In Bezug auf das einseitige Fassen (Cross Grip) hat sich nach den Turnieren von Suwon/Korea und Paris/Frankreich folgende Interpretation durchgesetzt:

Fasst Tori einseitig auf/über die Schulter/den Arm, darf Uke unterhalb des Gürtels greifen. Tori seinerseits muss aus diesem Griff sofort angreifen, sonst wird er mit Shido bestraft. Die veröffentlichten Videosequenzen, die dieser Regelung widersprechen, sind nicht mehr relevant.

In English:

After the first big tournaments, the masters in Suwon/Korea and the Grand Slam in Paris the following interpretations concerning one sided grip are now common.

If Tori takes a grip on top of or over Uke´s arm or shoulder, then Uke is allowed to grip beneath the belt. On the other hand, if Tori takes this grip he has to attack immediately. Otherwise he will be punished with shido.

The published video-sequences which are contrary to this are not valid any more.

[vfbsilva]

wdax, on Feb 8 2010, 06:54 PM, said:

This is from the german judo federation.....

Nach den ersten beiden großen Turnieren, dem Masters in Suwon/Korea und dem Grand Slam in Paris haben sich Interpretationen des einseitigen Fassens durchgesetzt:

In Bezug auf das einseitige Fassen (Cross Grip) hat sich nach den Turnieren von Suwon/Korea und Paris/Frankreich folgende Interpretation durchgesetzt:

Fasst Tori einseitig auf/über die Schulter/den Arm, darf Uke unterhalb des Gürtels greifen. Tori seinerseits muss aus diesem Griff sofort angreifen, sonst wird er mit Shido bestraft. Die veröffentlichten Videosequenzen, die dieser Regelung widersprechen, sind nicht mehr relevant.

In English:

After the first big tournaments, the masters in Suwon/Korea and the Grand Slam in Paris the following interpretations concerning one sided grip are now common.

If Tori takes a grip on top of or over Uke´s arm or shoulder, then Uke is allowed to grip beneath the belt. On the other hand, if Tori takes this grip he has to attack immediately. Otherwise he will be punished with shido.

The published video-sequences which are contrary to this are not valid any more.

Can you please please post videos regarding this new interpretation? Cause in a first glance seems somehow morote-gari is valid again I re-read and still confuse uke can grip below the belt as a contact te-guruma? Or cross grip once valid now will be punished immediately by shido?

This post has been edited by vfbsilva: 10 February 2010 - 01:52 AM

[Ben Reinhardt]

vfbsilva, on Feb 10 2010, 01:49 AM, said:

Can you please please post videos regarding this new interpretation? Cause in a first glance seems somehow morote-gari is valid again I re-read and still confuse uke can grip below the belt as a contact te-guruma? Or cross grip once valid now will be punished immediately by shido?

Go to the thread Neil Adams started-he has a video that explains this same thing.

[vfbsilva]

Ben Reinhardt, on Feb 10 2010, 01:22 AM, said:

Go to the thread Neil Adams started-he has a video that explains this same thing.

Does the rule refers to the first situation of the video?

[judogido]

I'm confused....


sorry ... MORE confused.

[Richard Riehle]

judogido, on Feb 9 2010, 10:08 PM, said:

I'm confused....
sorry ... MORE confused.

You are not alone. It is going to be a good while before the referees even understand what is legal and what is not. The new rules are so badly worded, and so poorly thought-out, with subtle variations on what is and what is not allowed, that interpretations will vary widely from one referee to another. For non-IJF tournaments, the new rules should be ignored completely and everything that was previous allowed should still be allowed. No one will be inconvenienced by that kind of policy. There are going to be a lot of disputable calls under the new rules.

[wdax]

Well, translating means "writing the same in a different language" and not commenting it. The confusion I think is because of a misleading use of the words "Tori" and "Uke". So I know will try to explain, what it means.

1) The rules are fixed now and like always, officially there will be no change, but only "interpretations" and "clearifications" - also if there are "new". This is "political correctness....

2) The Problem:
Some people have realized, that with the new rules, like they were introduced originally, there will be a big, big problems with "diagonal cross-grips". This is a grip, in which a person grips with his right hand over the right shoulder or arm and holds the gi or the belt of his opponent.

Why would this be a problem?

If my opponent has taken such a grip, he almost has won. He can do all kinds of maki-komi, o-uchi-gari and "Khabarelli". Almost the only way to deal with such an opponents grip is to attack his leg with my free hand. If he grips over my right shoulder with right hand, my left hand is free to attack f.ex. with te-guruma.

If now it would be not allowed for me - and punished with hansoku-make - to attack with my left hand, then the "diagonal-cross-grip" would became a kind of "sure win" for my opponent. ok?

After realizing this, an exception of the rules were introduced:

If a person takes a diagonal grip, then the opponent is allowed to attack the legs with his hands.

But now another problem arises: What is a cross grip exactly? The first "interpretation" was very unsatisfying, becaue it was a very "narrow" one. Cross grip is only gripping of the belt in defensive intention. Two minutes of thinking about it, would normally be enough to realize that this is more then stupid....

The answer given now is much better: cross-gripping is every diagonal grip with the right (left) hand on top of or over the right (left) arm or shoulder, no matter if the gi ist taken or the belt.

In this situation the competitor who takes the grip must attack immediately otherwise he recieves shido (it´s not new) and the other one is allowed to attack the legs with his hand(s).

So everybody should know a bit better, what is allowed and what is not.

But please keep in mind: This is not an IJF-statement, this is an information of the german referee-commission about the interpretation of the new rules how they were applied during the last IJF-events and how the rules are aplied in Germany.

[Mitesco]

vfbsilva, on Feb 10 2010, 06:42 AM, said:

Does the rule refers to the first situation of the video?

As far as I understand it: yes.

Thanks wdax-sensei for the clear explanation.

What I however would add to the discussion is this. In standard kumikata, one must attack at a certain moment, or he well receive shido for passivity. He can attack or attempt one (or fake one) while keeping standard grip. When he leaves standard kumikata with f.e. a cross-grip (which is very specific, or?) the refs might suppose that an attack is initiated - reason why in such cases the counter on the legs is of course allowed. Well, when 'tori' doesn't really attack (within a few seconds) while making a cross grip, it can be interpreted as a feint or whatever 'not attacking'. So shido.

For me it's not that difficult, but maybe is what I write over-simplified and the shiai practice of course more complicated to distinguish.

[vfbsilva]

wdax, on Feb 10 2010, 06:47 AM, said:

2) The Problem:
Some people have realized, that with the new rules, like they were introduced originally, there will be a big, big problems with "diagonal cross-grips". This is a grip, in which a person grips with his right hand over the right shoulder or arm and holds the gi or the belt of his opponent.

Why would this be a problem?

If my opponent has taken such a grip, he almost has won. He can do all kinds of maki-komi, o-uchi-gari and "Khabarelli". Almost the only way to deal with such an opponents grip is to attack his leg with my free hand. If he grips over my right shoulder with right hand, my left hand is free to attack f.ex. with te-guruma.

Yes thisis one thing we are already training in my club cross-grips, by the reasons you mentioned. Still, I see lots of holes in this new rules and I know it has been discussed ad-nauseum still they are messy and poorly written.

This post has been edited by vfbsilva: 10 February 2010 - 12:59 PM

[SODO]

vfbsilva, on Feb 10 2010, 01:44 PM, said:

Yes thisis one thing we are already training in my club cross-grips, by the reasons you mentioned. Still, I see lots of holes in this new rules and I know it has been discussed ad-nauseum still they are messy and poorly written.

finally something we can agree on

atb

sodo

[funjudo]

judogido, on Feb 10 2010, 12:08 AM, said:

I'm confused....
sorry ... MORE confused.

Agreed. I have no idea what the rules are.