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Jon Fitch says closed guard is useless Guerilla JJ bb, and pro mma fighter Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Matt_Werk 

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 04:43 AM

Jon Fitch is saying in the article below, closed guard is not useful in mma

Interview with Jon Fitch

Jon is a guerilla jitsu bb, and a pro mma fighter

This post has been edited by Matt_Werk: 08 February 2010 - 04:44 AM

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#2 User is offline   Pseudonymous 

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 04:46 AM

I guess his guard isn't good enough.
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#3 User is offline   CHH 

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 10:43 AM

Useless is too strong an adjective....but as a means of ending a fight, I would say it's one of the lowest percentage positions in the fight game.
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#4 User is offline   Newaza Freak 

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 05:23 PM

Most mma fighters would hate to be caught in aoki,bj penn or even damian maiai closed guard today but those are few and far between that pose danger like these guys mentioned above in mma today.

In the days when nobody knew how to defend the closed guard, it seemed effective for the players that were good from the closed guard position. today, it seems that you need to have world class"elite" bjj guard skill inorder to make it effective.


guys like jacare,roger gracie will always be dangerous from the closed guard in mma but then again we are looking at world class elite closed guards. In a nutshell,it's not high percentage, unless it's in the hands of a very talented guard player and even then those players will still have difficulties with some of the elite top game defenders.


The closed guard is much respected in the hands of a terror,as I am sure most everyone that fights aoki plans and prepares around avoiding getting caught in his closed guard.

This post has been edited by Newaza Freak: 08 February 2010 - 05:31 PM

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#5 User is offline   Dr. Rhadi Ferguson 

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 05:54 PM

The question is... do you know why he's saying that?

It's based upon Dave Camarillo's philosophy of being on the bottom in MMA. Which is spot on!

I don't agree that it is USELESS, but I do understand where he's coming from.
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#6 User is offline   HoldyerGround 

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 06:45 PM

I thought it was stupid that they used Chael's win over Nate as an evidence to support this. Filho armbarred Chael from the guard in their first fight.
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#7 User is offline   HoldyerGround 

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 06:45 PM

I thought it was stupid that they used Chael's win over Nate as an evidence to support this. Filho armbarred Chael from the guard in their first fight.
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#8 User is offline   Pseudonymous 

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 06:50 PM

Filho's sick though, from what I am told. I mean, I have not seen it (not to insult him, I really don't know him well!), but I hear it from too many sources for it to not be true.

Since a general case is always most desirable, here is what Fitch said:

"Unless you have the skills to make use of a given technique, that given technique is not of much use to you."

Useless is likely an exaggeration get his point across. Everyone does it. This is not a very controversial statement after all, eh?
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#9 User is offline   Glorfindel 

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 07:13 PM

Gravity is your friend, you cant arg with that and that's what i'm telling to our mma guy.
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#10 User is offline   Newaza Freak 

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 07:25 PM

In other words what fitch is saying is that it does not apply to the elite 5% of bjj black belts that have real sick bottom guards like aoki,maiai,etc.Those guys are not your typical very decent bjj blackbelt bottom guard players but exceptional crazy as sh*&^T guard players. Aoki or maiai for example, are some of the only mma fighters that you know are going to either sweep or submit if they get guard position. At the very least, they are going to be threatning all the time with sweeps and submissions from the guard. If any of these two get guard in a mma fight, don't go to the fridge and don't blink.

This post has been edited by Newaza Freak: 08 February 2010 - 07:31 PM

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#11 User is offline   BoxingJudoka 

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 07:42 PM

View PostNewaza Freak, on Feb 8 2010, 01:25 PM, said:

In other words what fitch is saying is that it does not apply to the elite 5% of bjj black belts that have real sick bottom guards like aoki,maiai,etc.Those guys are not your typical very decent bjj blackbelt bottom guard players but exceptional crazy as sh*&^T guard players. Aoki or maiai for example, are some of the only mma fighters that you know are going to either sweep or submit if they get guard position. At the very least, they are going to be threatning all the time with sweeps and submissions from the guard. If any of these two get guard in a mma fight, don't go to the fridge and don't blink.


Doesn't it also depend upon who they're fighting? Big Nog's closed guard seems to work fine on most guys, not so good against Fedor. Does that make it useless, or like anything else just a technique to be done under some circumstances and not others.

This post has been edited by BoxingJudoka: 08 February 2010 - 07:43 PM

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#12 User is offline   bythesea 

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 07:49 PM

Several people have commented along the lines: the game has changed. I'd agree with that. Generation 1 UFC had a bunch of random fighters, with wildly different skills. Grappling-based arts quickly became key skills as the fighters with grappling skills dominated. In Generation 2, I think grappling based dominance transitioned into the ground and pound strategy. This was a winning strategy all through Generation 2 of the UFC. However, in recent times (Generation 3), it seems that the core of MMA skills has been outlined, and fighters are no longer one dimensional -- rendering strategies like ground and pound, and guard based defense somewhat less successful. This would back up Jon Fitche's assertion. Not only that, BJJ has grown explosively, so the base of practitioners is bigger, and therefore more challenging. Basically, the skills at the top have diffused broadly, and are coming back in the next generation from the bottom. Currently, the UFC seems somewhat stagnate because of this (and other reasons). However, I think the next generation of fighters will be the first who have learned MMA from day one. It will be interesting to see what innovation they bring.
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#13 User is offline   Newaza Freak 

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 07:52 PM

View PostBoxingJudoka, on Feb 8 2010, 07:42 PM, said:

Doesn't it also depend upon who they're fighting? Big Nog's closed guard seems to work fine on most guys, not so good against Fedor. Does that make it useless, or like anything else just a technique to be done under some circumstances and not others.


yes indeed, similar to the way bj penn guard would probably spell danger for about 95% of most mma fighters out there today but a talented gsp maybe not so much.
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#14 User is offline   Dr. Rhadi Ferguson 

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 07:57 PM

The bottom line is this. In the choice of TOP or BOTTOM. Top is the choice. It is the more dominant of the two positions.
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#15 User is offline   Dutch 

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 09:27 PM

View PostDr. Rhadi Ferguson, on Feb 8 2010, 08:57 PM, said:

The bottom line is this. In the choice of TOP or BOTTOM. Top is the choice. It is the more dominant of the two positions.


There are two ways to top. One is Takedown, the other is sweep/reverse. In MMA the latter is far more risky, so the prefered route is to takedown. On the other hand, if some1 takes you down you need good sweeps and reversal to get on top. Therefor it is still important to practise your bottom game and closed guard is not useless.
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