JudoForum.com: Historical Video KNK - JudoForum.com

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Historical Video KNK Don´t want to be unrespectful to Rokudan Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Asakusa 

  • Judo Forum Sankyu
  • Icon
  • Group: Special Members
  • Posts: 195
  • Joined: 18-February 09

Posted 16 November 2009 - 01:45 PM

Hello!

Are there historical videos of Kano Shihan, Kawaishi- or Mifune-Sensei performing Katame no Kata? I am looking for a historical one, as I always
have to discuss with our rokudan about the way I set my sight on uke while applying a technique in KNK:
I look down on him, after my last motion toward him - while our rokudan insists of looking above uke, just with a glimpse of his body on the lower field of vision.

Refeering to the known videos, books and the teaching by a kodokan sensei I know my way is (also???) correct and it seems logical to me, to focus uke
in this moment - but I cannot persuade our rokudan and do not want to argue with him openly by respect ... (Yet! - he is disturbing our progress by permanently
stopping our perfomance by the named reason, to be honest - I would also appreciate a hint to solve THIS problem... :sad( )

He learned Judo in France - so I had some thoughts about it: Did Kawashi-Sensei demonstrate another style refeering to this point?
I DO have a copy of Kawaishis Kata Book, but I lend it to a friend, so it´s not available for a longer time.

Greetings

Asakusa

This post has been edited by Asakusa: 16 November 2009 - 01:50 PM

Judoforum's Mizuno Owners Club member #19
Mizuno Owner? Join the Club
0

#2 User is offline   Jonesy 

  • Judo Forum Godan
  • Icon
  • Group: Moderators
  • Posts: 4,351
  • Joined: 02-July 05

Posted 16 November 2009 - 10:31 PM

Can you provide me with reference texts/material that you think reinforces your belief that you are correct.

I agree with your sensei and I am Japanese, French and UK trained in kata.
Dr Llyr C Jones
0

#3 User is offline   rberry13 

  • Judo Forum Shodan
  • Icon
  • Group: Special Members
  • Posts: 789
  • Joined: 09-July 07

Posted 16 November 2009 - 11:02 PM

In the US, I have learned it the same way as your sensei and Jonesy.
There is no end to training. Once you begin to feel that you are masters, you are no longer getting on the way you are to follow.
-Hagakure Bushido
0

#4 User is offline   kujosan 

  • Judo Forum Yonkyu
  • Icon
  • Group: Special Members
  • Posts: 121
  • Joined: 07-February 07

Posted 16 November 2009 - 11:57 PM

View PostJonesy, on Nov 16 2009, 02:31 PM, said:

Can you provide me with reference texts/material that you think reinforces your belief that you are correct.

I agree with your sensei and I am Japanese, French and UK trained in kata.


I do not claim to be correct nor wish to contradict anyone. I am just adding another data point. I was taught thus for Katame (I learned in the US, in a series of 5 clinics with Fukuda-sensei):

-- From the far position, eyes gaze beyond uke, on the shomen side (or if tori is at uke's head, to gaze beyond uke's feet).
-- After arriving at the near position, the gaze comes down directly onto uke.

Also, in Otaki & Draeger's book "Judo Formal Techniques" (JFT), they specifically mention tori's gaze for each technique. They are specific this way:

-- from far position, the eyes focus beyond uke
-- Coming in from side, in near position, gaze turns to uke's face
-- after completing technique from side, gaze turns to uke's body
-- coming in from the head or back of uke, in the near position, gaze turns to uke's body
-- after completing technique from the head or back of uke, gaze is on uke's body
-- for last two techniques, visual contact is maintained

Directly quoting from JFT, for KUZURE KESA-GATAME:
p273: "...Immediately, but unhurriedly, he lowers himself and assumes kyoshi (open), then pauses momentarily with composure and quiet alertness, making visual contact with a point beyond Uke's body (on the kamiza side). Tori advances two steps by tsugi ashi in kyoshi (closed) to the near position (about 1 1/2 feet from Uke's right side) on the lateral axis and once there again assumes kyoshi (open) as he maintains composure and quiet alertness. Figs. (1)-(8). Tori shifts his gaze to Uke's face."

p281: "...Holding himself erect, Tori moves back the short distance he took for his entry step by sliding his left knee back, than his right foot. Tori assumes kyoshi (open) and pauses momentarily, with composure and quiet alertness, keeping visual contact with Uke's body. He is now ready for the next technique..."

I suppose "visual contact" is vague and could mean "keeping Uke in your lower field of vision", as the OP's rokudan said. Also, it seems to make sense to me that it is part of tori's zanshin after a technique is completed. However, on the entry, JFT clearly says Tori shifts his gaze to Uke's face. This is not how I learned it. I've never noticed anyone do it this way. I don't know if it's still correct today or not.

Is anyone surprised that different sensei teach kata slightly differently? JFT is over 25 years old. The OP's rokudan may have learned it 40 years ago. Yet, kata evolves continuously. I think it is a fair statement that what was "correct" kata 30 years ago, may not be the "fashion" for 25 years ago, which may not be the "fashion" for present day (btw, I hate to use the word "fashion", but I can't think of a better word). This is exactly the reason I am looking forward to the Kodokan kata booklets because presumably, they will contain the current "standard form" as accepted by the Kodokan. Issues like this can be easily put to rest (with respect to what is expected in a competition).

Finally, my training philosophy has been to not get hung up with the details so much that I lose the meat of the kata. True, the details are vital, but there are so many. If a controversy in the details is hindering forward progress, then doesn't it make sense to set that difference aside until a conclusive answer is found? I would defer to the knowledge of the rokudan. Really, it is a small adjustment to make on your part. Try it his way... maybe it will give you new light on the reason for the gaze.

From a lowly sankyu,
John.
Do not think dishonestly. The Way is in training. Become acquainted with every art. Know the Ways of all professions. Distinguish between gain and loss in worldly matters. Develop intuitive judgment and understanding for everything. Perceive those things which cannot be seen. Pay attention to trifles. Do nothing which is of no use. -- Miyamoto Musashi, A Book of Five Rings.
0

#5 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

  • Judo Forum Hachidan
  • Icon
  • Group: Special Members
  • Posts: 19,252
  • Joined: 29-January 06

Posted 17 November 2009 - 01:39 AM

View PostAsakusa, on Nov 16 2009, 10:45 PM, said:

Hello!

Are there historical videos of Kano Shihan, Kawaishi- or Mifune-Sensei performing Katame no Kata? I am looking for a historical one, as I always
have to discuss with our rokudan about the way I set my sight on uke while applying a technique in KNK:
I look down on him, after my last motion toward him - while our rokudan insists of looking above uke, just with a glimpse of his body on the lower field of vision.

Refeering to the known videos, books and the teaching by a kodokan sensei I know my way is (also???) correct and it seems logical to me, to focus uke
in this moment - but I cannot persuade our rokudan and do not want to argue with him openly by respect ... (Yet! - he is disturbing our progress by permanently
stopping our perfomance by the named reason, to be honest - I would also appreciate a hint to solve THIS problem... :sad( )

He learned Judo in France - so I had some thoughts about it: Did Kawashi-Sensei demonstrate another style refeering to this point?
I DO have a copy of Kawaishis Kata Book, but I lend it to a friend, so it´s not available for a longer time.

Greetings

Asakusa


I believe the Shingi Mifune video contains Katame-no-kata in addition to nage-no-kata, itsutsu-no-kata, nage-no-kata-ura-waza (or ura-no-kata), and Mifune's own goshinjutsu.

There also exist a katame -no-kata performance on the very old historic open air performance with Yamashita, Nagaoka, Isogai, Mifune, etc. It will probably be somewhere on YouTube. I can't remember who the performers are for katame-no-kata.
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
"I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
0

#6 User is offline   Asakusa 

  • Judo Forum Sankyu
  • Icon
  • Group: Special Members
  • Posts: 195
  • Joined: 18-February 09

Posted 17 November 2009 - 09:19 AM

Hi!

I am also refering to Otaki & Draeger's book "Judo Formal Techniques", from where kujosan quoted the
related parts. Also to the Kodokan KNK Videos and some recommended Videos in the KNK Section of the forum:


http://www.youtube.c...h?v=2g8Ek_6D5zA

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=PY7OIdYKWTo e.g. at 0:48


Of course I do not insist to be correct, but I think I am - if I watch these references and memorize what
I have learned in GJF clinics and at the Kodokan.

But, indeed there are videos with the other way:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=LZlGWrL6ceQ e.g. at 0:51


Is it just a matter of taste; setting the gaze by moving only your eyes or by moving your head...?

This post has been edited by Asakusa: 17 November 2009 - 09:20 AM

Judoforum's Mizuno Owners Club member #19
Mizuno Owner? Join the Club
0

#7 User is offline   Jonesy 

  • Judo Forum Godan
  • Icon
  • Group: Moderators
  • Posts: 4,351
  • Joined: 02-July 05

Posted 17 November 2009 - 05:38 PM

You have now clarified yourself. When you move from the near kyoshi position to engage with tori and apply waza then you do shift your gaze onto uke. It is not a false or forced shift, but one which is natural and integral to the particular waza you are applying. When you are moving in and out of the far and near kyoshi positions or transitioning from the "head to the side" you look beyond.
Dr Llyr C Jones
0

#8 User is offline   Asakusa 

  • Judo Forum Sankyu
  • Icon
  • Group: Special Members
  • Posts: 195
  • Joined: 18-February 09

Posted 17 November 2009 - 09:17 PM

View PostJonesy, on Nov 17 2009, 06:38 PM, said:

You have now clarified yourself. When you move from the near kyoshi position to engage with tori and apply waza then you do shift your gaze onto uke. It is not a false or forced shift, but one which is natural and integral to the particular waza you are applying. When you are moving in and out of the far and near kyoshi positions or transitioning from the "head to the side" you look beyond.



Thank you Jonesy - Sry, I will try to better point out such things in future! For some luck we have youtube-videos to correct a misleading choice of words :blush:
Judoforum's Mizuno Owners Club member #19
Mizuno Owner? Join the Club
0

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic