[chiave]

Its still possible to use ukiwaza - Yoko Otoshi under the new IJF rules :
http://www.judovision.org/?p=6169


Vazagashvili was the specialist :
http://www.judovision.org/?p=2022

Thoughts?

This post has been edited by chiave: 11 November 2009 - 08:26 AM

[Richard Favinger Jr]

The bow was disgraceful...

[Michael Hanwell]

Richard Favinger Jr, on Nov 11 2009, 10:32 AM, said:

The bow was disgraceful...

He is a very likable and well mannered young man. No histrionics, just good basic mat etiquette. Well spotted.

Oh, and yes. It would seem that Minashkin (EST) has no difficulty in using Uki Waza - Yoko Otoshi under the new IJF rules.

This post has been edited by Michael Hanwell: 11 November 2009 - 11:29 AM

[Armlock]

It strikes me that the discussion about whether the technique was ok or not depending upon whether tori touched the leg or did not shows just how silly the new rules are. This was an excellent technique and would have been whether tori grabbed the leg or not. The rules don't make one a better example of judo than another.

[Ben Reinhardt]

chiave, on Nov 11 2009, 08:25 AM, said:

Its still possible to use ukiwaza - Yoko Otoshi under the new IJF rules :
http://www.judovision.org/?p=6169
Vazagashvili was the specialist :
http://www.judovision.org/?p=2022

Thoughts?

So, why the question? The first match you gave as an example there was no problem. The Estonian did two very nice techniques, no leg grabbing. In fact, I think it works better and is cleaner in his case without leg/pants grabbing. Because of the control of uke's sleeve, tori can really keep uke from twisting out. If you look, the Russian had "sleeve control", that holy grail of competitive Judo, and the Estonian used it against him with good timing.

[Armlock]

http://www.judo1.com/html/gill.html

You can't tell me the kata garuma's in this are bad judo because the leg is grabbed.

[Michael Hanwell]

Dear Armlock,

Nick Gill's (CAN) execution of Kata Guruma (indeed many of his other techniques) was highly skillful and for many years a pleasure to watch. But for every "Nick" there were ten ugly ducklings, all groping around at one's feet, grovelling like so many wackos with a foot fetish. The posture associated with this style of fighting was viewed as so unattractive, so negative and so detrimental to that which the IJF wished to encourage that it was decided to take action. Whether the action taken by the IJF results in more attractive judo remains to be seen. There are several more events to be held at which these new rules will be tested. One thing is already clear, however. Kata Guruma continues to be executed in competition as does Te Guruma, Kibisu Gaeshi, Suki Nage and Kuchiki Taoshi all of which I have heard referred to recently as having been banned.

The explanation for why these techniques continue to be valid in competition (when so many are of the opinion that they have been banned) is the method of their execution. It has been explained elsewhere by people with a greater knowledge of these things than myself, that these techniques may be used as a counter to an attack or as the second part of a combination. What is banned is any attack below the waist in which the hand first makes contact with the leg. We may say that a particular method of attack has been banned; the techniques remain valid.

[Armlock]

[quote name='Michael Hanwell' date='Nov 12 2009, 05:57 PM' post='524460']

Can't this be said of every technique? There is only one Koga yet many others with awkwardly executed, ugly seoi nages, e.g. If you unduly penalize those learning or trying techniques you won't have anyone develop them to a desired level.

This post has been edited by Armlock: 12 November 2009 - 06:19 PM

[Michael Hanwell]

One could indeed say this about every technique and I agree that "there is only one Koga" and that there have been many others with awkwardly executed, ugly seoi nages. But this does not alter the fact that it is impossible at present to prove the notion that the proposed new rules will "unduly penalize those learning or trying techniques" and that "you won't have anyone develop them to a desired level."

This post has been edited by Michael Hanwell: 12 November 2009 - 07:27 PM

[IMesh]

Michael Hanwell, on Nov 12 2009, 09:22 AM, said:

One could indeed say this about every technique and I agree that "there is only one Koga" and that there have been many others with awkwardly executed, ugly seoi nages. But this does not alter the fact that it is impossible at present to prove the notion that the proposed new rules will "unduly penalize those learning or trying techniques" and that "you won't have anyone develop them to a desired level."

Tell me, how many great kani basami guy are out there nowadays? Not many people practice and get good at techniques they can't use in competition.

[Michael Hanwell]

IMesh, on Nov 12 2009, 07:35 PM, said:

Tell me, how many great kani basami guy are out there nowadays? Not many people practice and get good at techniques they can't use in competition.

I know of none; but that is because the technique is banned in competition and many coaches appear to have decided not to teach it. This is not the case with the techniques in question. They are neither banned nor are they likely to disappear as important competition techniques.

[Ben Reinhardt]

Armlock, on Nov 12 2009, 04:25 PM, said:

http://www.judo1.com/html/gill.htmlYou can't tell me the kata garuma's in this are bad judo because the leg is grabbed.

If you are replying to my post, I did not say that a Kata Guruma performed by grabbing the leg is BAD. I'm not sure what the Estonian did was Kata Guruma or not, it looked more like the "Laats Drop", which I think is not a form of Kata Guruma.To rephrase, I think that the technique performed by the Estonian was a good example of how you do not HAVE to grab the leg, be it Kata Guruma, Yoko Otoshi, or Uki Waza, or hybrid throw.Personally, to be clear, I think the new "leg grabbing" rules are a bit silly, and the "problem" was being addressed by limiting grabbing to the leg, not pants. In fact, I think that the rules under which an attack was needed right away after grabbing the pants/leg was a good one, and when a hopping contest ensued, matte' was called.

Michael Hanwell, on Nov 12 2009, 08:56 PM, said:

I know of none; but that is because the technique is banned in competition and many coaches appear to have decided not to teach it. This is not the case with the techniques in question. They are neither banned nor are they likely to disappear as important competition techniques.

So I had a GREEN BELT ask me last week if he could use Kani Basami in randori. In fact a JUNIOR green belt, as in 16 years old, who had been away from the club for a few years. I asked some of the guys who had not quit in the interim how on earth a GREEN belt even could think he could do Kani Basami. They said that the previous instructor had demonstrated it for them a few years ago (he is now retired, and a darned good judoka at that), and that they were never allowed to do it in randori.I practically got a chill thinking about a green belt doing Kani Basami in randori agains guys who had no idea how to take the fall safely. Same green belt tried a Tai Otoshi that would have dislocated my right knee if I had had my knees even vaguely straight.Not sure why I posted that, but, my experience is that it is a good thing Kani Basami is not longer allowed in contest.