[rberry13]

Hanon, on Sep 11 2009, 11:02 AM, said:

If I had been there live and saw that I would have praised the hell out of the little ones. I would have avoided their teacher like the plague though. The kids did fine. the teacher is very very unwise. This is what happens when we place our children in the hands of people who have no clue what they are doing. Shame, crying shame.Only praise should and must be given those kids though.Mike

Nice post!

Taigyo, on Sep 11 2009, 12:51 PM, said:

Kind of like the way many people have decided that Ju no Kata is 'just for women" and that real men don't practice it.

This always makes me laugh! I've studied (won't dare to say I know) NNK, KTK and Ju no Kata. Of these 3, Ju no Kata is by FAR the most physically demanding for me.

[Cichorei Kano]

Hanon, on Sep 12 2009, 12:02 AM, said:

If I had been there live and saw that I would have praised the hell out of the little ones. I would have avoided their teacher like the plague though. The kids did fine. the teacher is very very unwise. This is what happens when we place our children in the hands of people who have no clue what they are doing. Shame, crying shame.

Only praise should and must be given those kids though.

Mike

Excellent response, sensei !

[aiyotsu]

Hanon, on Sep 12 2009, 03:02 AM, said:

If I had been there live and saw that I would have praised the hell out of the little ones. I would have avoided their teacher like the plague though. The kids did fine. the teacher is very very unwise. This is what happens when we place our children in the hands of people who have no clue what they are doing. Shame, crying shame.

Only praise should and must be given those kids though.

Mike

Hello Hanon-sensei.I support what you say. As one unqualified to comment I would like to do so anyway. I think those children gave it their best shot and made it look more like judo than some of the clips of adults I have seen. But the instructor??? I am honestly appalled. A local car workshop used to have a sign upon the wall which read ;Be sure to put the brain in gear before engaging the mouth. A little re-wording would fit this case very well. Respectfully and in friendship aiyotso

This post has been edited by aiyotsu: 13 September 2009 - 12:28 AM

[Blind Dog]

Children should be encouraged to do ANY KATA AT ANY AGE!!!! How else are you going to understand or improve if you don't start NOW!

In fact, I think Children (and any competitor at any age) Should have to pass a Randori no Kata examination (rank appropriate) before they can compete in Shi-ai competition. In fact, I think they should learn these kata before gokyu no waza! Too many judoka are being thrown into shi-ai competition after being taught a handful of techniques and left to flounder on their own to figure it out. It would make Judo competition alot safer and I think better.

Kata is the schoolmaster! The purpose of kata is to teach the waza/principles in prearranged forms. I believe IMHO Kano, Shihan never intended Judo to be taught as it is today and I think he would probably be very sad to see the emphasis being put on "quick-start" judo for shi-ai competition's sake. Judo is like good chili, it needs to be slow-cooked and have time to simmer to bring out the deep flavours.

Let the children play!!! (in white dogi)

This post has been edited by Blind Dog: 07 October 2009 - 12:45 PM

[Cichorei Kano]

Here is another recently published video of itsutsu-no-kata featuring youngsters. It was recorded during this year's (2009) YMCA camp:

[Steve Leadbeater]

I will not comment upon the Kata performed in either video,
I will only ask if those performing were enjoying what they were doing ??
Enjoyment of the act is the reason for the performance.

[Hanon]

Blind Dog, on Oct 7 2009, 01:26 PM, said:

Children should be encouraged to do ANY KATA AT ANY AGE!!!! How else are you going to understand or improve if you don't start NOW!

In fact, I think Children (and any competitor at any age) Should have to pass a Randori no Kata examination (rank appropriate) before they can compete in Shi-ai competition. In fact, I think they should learn these kata before gokyu no waza! Too many judoka are being thrown into shi-ai competition after being taught a handful of techniques and left to flounder on their own to figure it out. It would make Judo competition alot safer and I think better.

Kata is the schoolmaster! The purpose of kata is to teach the waza/principles in prearranged forms. I believe IMHO Kano, Shihan never intended Judo to be taught as it is today and I think he would probably be very sad to see the emphasis being put on "quick-start" judo for shi-ai competition's sake. Judo is like good chili, it needs to be slow-cooked and have time to simmer to bring out the deep flavours.

Let the children play!!! (in white dogi)

I am pleased you see the value of kata.

Tell me, how can kata be taught BEFORE the gokyo? As the gokyo is the alphabet of judo how can one write a letter without first having the basics tools to do so? This is a major concern of mine. When I am asked to teach the randori no kata so often I find the pupils cant make use of a kata as they have yet to learn the waza inculuded in the kata (sometimes even ukemi are lacking)?

I had to perform the randori no kata for my ikkyu that is how far I go back. I do agree that kata and shiai must run in parallel as the lessons taken from the one are used to build the other. Kata is a tool as is shiai. Kata is a time to work on difficunces that prevent us making good in randori and shiai. Shiai is a testing of the self under pressure.

I agree with some of your points but, with respect, think you are too radical and this radicallity would only cause a new misbalance. All pupils need to be taught any subject in a structured manner that has a beginning following on toward an end.
This progression should be taxing and cause self expoloration and study BUT never overconsume the pupil. Pray tell me of what vlaue at all is the itsutsu no kata to pupils who have not learned the previous five or six kata to a very high standard. One starts with kindergarten then pre school, infants, juniors, senoirs, college then university. To begin the other way around................well it doesnt need writting does it?

One step at a time and as you write there should be an apprentiship. No apprentice though stats studying at Ph.D level then works backwards.

Because the itsutsu no kata comprises five waza that may appear simple is the very reason we need to look an awful deeper into the water for it is THE most demanding kata of them all. The nuances alone take decades to understand then to put them into practice.......

Mike

[kanojujitsu]

Hanon, on Oct 11 2009, 09:56 AM, said:

I am pleased you see the value of kata.

Tell me, how can kata be taught BEFORE the gokyo? As the gokyo is the alphabet of judo how can one write a letter without first having the basics tools to do so? This is a major concern of mine. When I am asked to teach the randori no kata so often I find the pupils cant make use of a kata as they have yet to learn the waza inculuded in the kata (sometimes even ukemi are lacking)?

I had to perform the randori no kata for my ikkyu that is how far I go back. I do agree that kata and shiai must run in parallel as the lessons taken from the one are used to build the other. Kata is a tool as is shiai. Kata is a time to work on difficunces that prevent us making good in randori and shiai. Shiai is a testing of the self under pressure.

I agree with some of your points but, with respect, think you are too radical and this radicallity would only cause a new misbalance. All pupils need to be taught any subject in a structured manner that has a beginning following on toward an end.
This progression should be taxing and cause self expoloration and study BUT never overconsume the pupil. Pray tell me of what vlaue at all is the itsutsu no kata to pupils who have not learned the previous five or six kata to a very high standard. One starts with kindergarten then pre school, infants, juniors, senoirs, college then university. To begin the other way around................well it doesnt need writting does it?

One step at a time and as you write there should be an apprentiship. No apprentice though stats studying at Ph.D level then works backwards.

Because the itsutsu no kata comprises five waza that may appear simple is the very reason we need to look an awful deeper into the water for it is THE most demanding kata of them all. The nuances alone take decades to understand then to put them into practice.......

Mike

I agree, we have enough trouble trying to teach NNK to the brown belts!

[Hanon]

kanojujitsu, on Oct 11 2009, 07:11 PM, said:

I agree, we have enough trouble trying to teach NNK to the brown belts!

Tell me about it! lol

How are you BTW?

Mike

[kanojujitsu]

Hanon, on Oct 11 2009, 03:33 PM, said:

Tell me about it! lol

How are you BTW?

Mike

Very good actually, thanks for asking, hope all is well with you

[Blind Dog]

Hanon, on Oct 11 2009, 08:56 AM, said:

I am pleased you see the value of kata.

Tell me, how can kata be taught BEFORE the gokyo? As the gokyo is the alphabet of judo how can one write a letter without first having the basics tools to do so? ...
I agree with some of your points but, with respect, think you are too radical and this radicallity would only cause a new misbalance....
This progression should be taxing and cause self expoloration and study BUT never overconsume the pupil. Pray tell me of what vlaue at all is the itsutsu no kata to pupils who have not learned the previous five or six kata to a very high standard. One starts with kindergarten then pre school, infants, juniors, senoirs, college then university. To begin the other way around................well it doesnt need writting does it?

One step at a time and as you write there should be an apprentiship. No apprentice though stats studying at Ph.D level then works backwards.

Because the itsutsu no kata comprises five waza that may appear simple is the very reason we need to look an awful deeper into the water for it is THE most demanding kata of them all. The nuances alone take decades to understand then to put them into practice.......

Mike

Domo Arigato, Sensei.
Yes, I agree. My "radicallity" would cause a new imbalance. Balance is best tempered with moderation. That's why ....I'm still learning. I become radical when I see the state of Judo today. I long for the Judo of my youth (hell, I just long for my youth!) But that Judo can only live in me. My ripples can only effect the waters in my pond and I'm trying to make my pond bigger. But, I'm trying to do that by making my ripples bigger and that only makes waves (pretty good, huh? I just made that up).

So, modify what I said with what you said.



.

[mro sandan]

Well, then let me have a shot at this as well:

When the whole reason for this phenomena is to "show off" the children with their proposed "knowledge" of the INK, it is out of sync.
The purpose would need to be to get- and practice the deeper understanding of the techniques and the reason behind them being in this kata in this combination.
Should kids have been able to show the answer to that quest by means of a live demonstration, the phenomena of Mozart has found its match.
Which is not impossible, but highly unlikely which leaves me with the idea that "the show" is all that is left.