[Lobun1]

Thanks Guys, Voiced a shared feeling there.

I'm also at the point of quitting shiai over this... and I don't rely on pick ups. But, I'm sick all of the changes: the marginalisation of Ground work.. and now this; it takes the biscuit! ...somebody cheer me up!

Quote

Will I be impaired by this? No. I don't use leg grabs. My main throws are seoi nage, harai goshi and tani otoshi. In fact, it may become easier for me to win. However, I want to win because of my Judo, not because of the rules. My opponent should find my superior waza an impossible barrier to overcome - not the rules.

good quote there from the Hyperborean (sorry if I haven't quoted properly, i'll work it out i've only just arrived on the Forum)

This post has been edited by Lobun1: 07 November 2009 - 07:19 AM

[Wushijima]

"The rules are what they are." Quote from Dr Rhadi Ferguson.

A lot of foolish decisions are made in many arenas because the people who should be standing up and actually voicing an opinion refuse to do so.

Bravo Mr Pedro. Your concerns re: Kata Guruma are laudable and to be fair, seem to be at the heart of the debate surrounding the leg grab rules. It is a classical throw, as are many involving hand contact with the legs: Sukui Nage (classical variant which one only occasionally sees these days) soto muso, kouchi makikomi and numerous other variants are now at risk.

The loss of techniques from shiai will mean the loss of them from Judo practice for many people now. Coaches tend to work very closely around the rules, and part of Judo's appeal for so long was the huge range of techniques that the system had. Successive attempts to make judo more photogenic, aesthetically pleasing, or more appealing to short attention spans have eroded many aspects of the game. One might even argue that people would not feel the need to study many other grappling styles if Judo had remained true to what it was prior to the 1964 Olympics.

When you go to Judo School A and have to get your head around the rules about what you can't do and the exceptions to these, then visit Ju Jutsu School B and get told just make 'em tap, people will opt for the KISS option every time, and rightly so. Judo will suffer in the long run if the "evolution of judo" as it is so frequently referred to amounts to a progressively more convoluted set of rules which stipulate "Thou shalt not..."

As a coach, I don't want to be having to negotiate a class saying "Here are techniques A,B,C,D,E but you can't do A,C and E for a series of reasons you wouldn't understand unless I give you a complete history of the aesthetics of judo, and B has been disallowed for safety reasons. Oh yeah and unless you make progress with technique D inside of a time limit unspecified under the rules but left to the discretion of a referee, you'll be stood up." KISS. In this case, B is the only sound reason I could see for removing a technique (eg Kani Basami, Kawazu Gake).

Judo was never like this once, but true to the saying "A camel is just a horse designed by committee", there are a successive generations of nameless, faceless people in the IJF who are unknown to 99% of Judoka worldwide who continually pay lip service to Dr Kano and the spirit of judo, yet have no problem deciding that he really didn't know what he was doing when he formulated the basic priciples of Judo and that they need to rescue Judo from his short sightedness.

If I were to do a classical Kata Guruma in 2009 it would be very much in the spirit of judo, if after Jan 2010 it is against the spirit of judo. How can a committee decide things like this? KISS.

I use a kouchi makikomi from time to time, but do not generally practice leg grabs. I have more to gain as a competitor from their loss as I have continually been caught out over the years by these techniques. Do I think they should be removed? Never.

I am a judoka and coach of no particular note from a country that has never made a huge splash on the world stage. My concern is for Judo as a whole, and not the 5% of people involved in Judo at the Top level and whether they are doing throws that look good on camera. The erosion of judo at the lower level by removing techniques and making the competition system needlessly complicated with regards to what situations these techniques can be used in will drive people away from Judo at the lower level, and this will have an effect on judo at the top level. Plants grow from the roots, not the flowers (I thought that metaphor up right now. Cool eh?)

I would urge any judoka of note if you have concerns such as those many are voicing at this time to email the IJF, or get your parent body to do so. If five major judo nations refused to participate internationally until these rules were repealed, I suspect there would be some major back pedalling done by our little friends. But as none of these nations will do such a thing, it falls to individuals to email whoever will listen and not take the attitude that Dr Ferguson has in this case. Stand up and add to the debate. Don't just spout bland philosophy. Say you support the rules or say you don't, or at least make some real comment on some aspect if you aren't sure. Say we should have head kick in Judo if you want, but say something.

Judo is always evolving, yet evolution can cause an animal or plant to grow bigger or smaller, stronger or weaker, more or less intelligent. I am certain that the bulk of judoka worldwide would feel that the loss of any techniques for anything other than genuine safety reasons is going to cause the system to evolve in ways which make it weaker, blander and smaller. Do we want judo to be a Megalodon or a great white? A T-Rex, or a chicken?

This post has been edited by Wushijima: 13 January 2010 - 09:07 AM

[Dr. Rhadi Ferguson]

Wushijima, on Jan 12 2010, 11:02 PM, said:

"The rules are what they are." Quote from Dr Rhadi Ferguson.

I am disappointed to see such a comment posted by Dr Ferguson.

I'll bet Dr Martin Luther King or Mahatma Gandhi would have been great successes if they had taken that attitude.

WTF?!?!?

The rules are what they are.

And as a Black person, who went to a Historically Black College, who has been thrown on the ground by the police twice with a gun put to my head and who was pulled over 4 times in the first two weeks when I moved into Boca Raton, FL. I UNDERSTAND completely what I'm saying, when I say, "The Rules Are What They Are"

My parents EXCELLED with the rules being what they were. My aunt succeeded while she had crosses burning in her yard, because the rules were what they were. And I've succeeded with the rules being what they are, and I will coach with the rules being what they are. I'm NOT a republican, but I do agree with one thing.... I DON'T AGREE WITH BELLY-ACHING and complaining.

The rules aren't changing tomorrow. They are what they are. DEAL WITH IT AND FIGURE OUT A WAY TO WIN, not complain.

THAT'S MY STANCE. Just SO THAT YOU KNOW. I've voiced my opinion. Repeatedly. I just don't agree with WHINING!

And next time watch what you write. YOU DO NOT KNOW ME and watch talking about Dr. Martin Luther King, because you DO NOT KNOW my struggle. I've marched more, picketed more, given more and done more at the ripe age of 34 than you can imagine. Like I said....

I GRADUATED FROM HOWARD UNIVERSITY!!!! And if you don't know what that means.... go find out! >:-|

It took all of my personal strength and religion to write this post and not make a personal attack against you in accordance with the forum rules. But I'm telling you, that your post has PISSED me off more than any post that I received on the forum. How dare you make such a comparison. It was in poor taste and out of order.

[Wushijima]

Dear Dr Ferguson.

I have edited my earlier comments to remove references that have upset you. It was my intention to provoke your comment, not your ire.

I meant no offence to you or your family.

I am aware of the reputation of Howard University and the considerable talents you have employed to get where you are.

Likewise I am aware of the struggle that the African-American people had on their hands (insofar as a non African-American can be) during the 20th century.

I shall keep Dr King and his struggle well separated from this discussion.

I use your title "Dr" not in sarcasm, but genuinely as somebody who knows your reputation as a coach and who has respect for your academic and sporting background.

My comments from the paragraph beginning "Bravo Mr Pedro" stand.

I am known to those near and dear to me as somebdoy who will speak his mind, and where offence is given admit where I have acted like a schmuck (or worse) and try to make good on it.

I hope in this few words I can convince you of my sincerity.

I have seen numerous rule changes during my time in judo. Obvioulsy some I agree with, some I don't, but there needs to be a place for debate. And the debate of elite players/ coaches/ refs can add to the debate. Concerns that an elite coach such as yourself and those who employ your services as such may only represent a tiny percentage of judoka in the world. Nonetheless they are important.

Surely as a man known for his pick ups, you have some emotional response to the marginalisation of several rather important techniques in the system. Almost anybody I have spoken to shows considerable astonishment at the change in the competition rules. As I stated, Mr Pedro voiced concerns that are being voiced the world over.

I wish to conclude by stating very emphatically

1. That my concerns were voiced in the spirit of healthy debate.

2. Just beacuse the IJF have changed the rules, it doesn't make it a good thing for Judo.

3. I am a schmuck for upsetting a man whose opinion I value. If he can please forgive me it will be more than I deserve.

Yours in the spirit of Judo

Wushijima.

"Attack till your heart stops beating."

[PointyShinyBurning]

Wushijima, on Jan 13 2010, 04:02 AM, said:

then visit Ju Jutsu School B and get told just make 'em tap, people will opt for the KISS option every time, and rightly so.

The thing is, BJJ rules are actually very much designed to create a particular style of grappling. However, it's enforced not by continual referee stoppages for penalties but in the scoring system.

For example, turtling up from the bottom of a pin and trying to shoot a single leg is deemed less desirable than escaping to guard and sweeping. The referee doesn't stop the match for a lecture, though, he just scores two points for the latter and none for the former. Same for the first stalling infraction, the referee awards an advantage (small score, like a yuko) without pausing the action or interrupting the fighters.

[Dr. Rhadi Ferguson]

Wushijima, on Jan 13 2010, 04:37 AM, said:

Dear Dr Ferguson.

I have edited my earlier comments to remove references that have upset you. It was my intention to provoke your comment, not your ire.

I meant no offence to you or your family.

I am aware of the reputation of Howard University and the considerable talents you have employed to get where you are.

Likewise I am aware of the struggle that the African-American people had on their hands (insofar as a non African-American can be) during the 20th century.

I shall keep Dr King and his struggle well separated from this discussion.

I use your title "Dr" not in sarcasm, but genuinely as somebody who knows your reputation as a coach and who has respect for your academic and sporting background.

My comments from the paragraph beginning "Bravo Mr Pedro" stand.

I am known to those near and dear to me as somebdoy who will speak his mind, and where offence is given admit where I have acted like a schmuck (or worse) and try to make good on it.

I hope in this few words I can convince you of my sincerity.

I have seen numerous rule changes during my time in judo. Obvioulsy some I agree with, some I don't, but there needs to be a place for debate. And the debate of elite players/ coaches/ refs can add to the debate. Concerns that an elite coach such as yourself and those who employ your services as such may only represent a tiny percentage of judoka in the world. Nonetheless they are important.

Surely as a man known for his pick ups, you have some emotional response to the marginalisation of several rather important techniques in the system. Almost anybody I have spoken to shows considerable astonishment at the change in the competition rules. As I stated, Mr Pedro voiced concerns that are being voiced the world over.

I wish to conclude by stating very emphatically

1. That my concerns were voiced in the spirit of healthy debate.

2. Just beacuse the IJF have changed the rules, it doesn't make it a good thing for Judo.

3. I am a schmuck for upsetting a man whose opinion I value. If he can please forgive me it will be more than I deserve.

Yours in the spirit of Judo

Wushijima.

"Attack till your heart stops beating."

I accept your reply.In terms of me being upset. I'm not upset at all. I ONLY did Morote Gari because based upon the rules it was the best move that suited me based upon the time that I had and the level of mastery I would be able to achieve based upon my college wrestling experience and football experience. Also strategically it is a relatively safe move and it does sooooo many other things. (See www.MoroteGariDVD.com if interested). Now I am pissed that the IJF took some good money outta my pocket with this rule :-) but the BJJ folks are super excited about it. The rule changes are really kind of fun for me. I've had to think of a new system and tweak some of my current strategies and philosophies. I just had a client leave my house this past weekend and he called me yesterday so excited because all of the things that we covered worked in practice. This is an opportunity to adapt. If all I knew was Morote Gari, I'd be out of business! That was just a strategic approach that I used. That's it. It was the best one, for me, at the time. Now there is a new "morote gari" and it is __________. :-). This game is simple yet complex. As the rules close the options down, they actually make the science sweeter. The studies of close qtr combat and boxing, fencing and gripfighting are more important than ever.My client and I went over 4 hours of gripfighting info and he couldn't believe how much more there was to the game. Personally I DON'T have time to get upset about the rules. When the Pres. Of the Bahamian Judo Federation calls me and asks for the new technical and strength and conditioning directives based on the new rules, he doesn't want to hear nothing except what he has asked for and what he is paying for. Anything else and I will get FIRED. So "NO", I don't have the luxury to belly-ache and whine or complain. Whining or complaining is not part of my business model. It doesn't get reports written. It doesn't help analyze data and it does create new initiatives for development based upon the rules.

[Wushijima]

Dr. Rhadi Ferguson, on Jan 14 2010, 01:36 AM, said:

I accept your reply.In terms of me being upset. I'm not upset at all. I ONLY did Morote Gari because based upon the rules it was the best move that suited me based upon the time that I had and the level of mastery I would be able to achieve based upon my college wrestling experience and football experience. Also strategically it is a relatively safe move and it does sooooo many other things. (See www.MoroteGariDVD.com if interested). Now I am pissed that the IJF took some good money outta my pocket with this rule :-) but the BJJ folks are super excited about it. The rule changes are really kind of fun for me. I've had to think of a new system and tweak some of my current strategies and philosophies. I just had a client leave my house this past weekend and he called me yesterday so excited because all of the things that we covered worked in practice. This is an opportunity to adapt. If all I knew was Morote Gari, I'd be out of business! That was just a strategic approach that I used. That's it. It was the best one, for me, at the time. Now there is a new "morote gari" and it is __________. :-). This game is simple yet complex. As the rules close the options down, they actually make the science sweeter. The studies of close qtr combat and boxing, fencing and gripfighting are more important than ever.My client and I went over 4 hours of gripfighting info and he couldn't believe how much more there was to the game. Personally I DON'T have time to get upset about the rules. When the Pres. Of the Bahamian Judo Federation calls me and asks for the new technical and strength and conditioning directives based on the new rules, he doesn't want to hear nothing except what he has asked for and what he is paying for. Anything else and I will get FIRED. So "NO", I don't have the luxury to belly-ache and whine or complain. Whining or complaining is not part of my business model. It doesn't get reports written. It doesn't help analyze data and it does create new initiatives for development based upon the rules.

Dr Ferguson.

First if all. You are better man than I am for accepting my apology. I was not really expecting it.

Second. Your analysis is one which answers some questions. It does however bring home to me the difference between a professional perspective on Judo such as your own, and the amateur basis on which many people have to work from, myself included.

It would seem therefore that some of the points I raised regarding how judo has evolved or "de-volved" as some might think of it do not feature anywhere on your horizon based on your perspective. They are issues for which you don't have time to spare, given where you are coming from and what you are trying to achieve. There is whole lot of stuff I spent ages trying to phrase and rephrase here, before realising it would probably not help to articulate what I think/feel. So I won't bother.

Your (apparent) lack of any sentimental attachment to Morote Gari gives me some cause for amusement. Most grapplers I have met are quite protective of their favorites, even when they have to adopt new techniques to keep ahead of the competition. I am certain there were a few tears shed at bedtime the night that Kani Basami was taken away from us. How well I remember it. My pillow rotted it got so wet.

I wouldn't expect you to give anything but the services you are paid for to any client that you may be helping out. That is the nature of professionalism: that you act in a professional manner.

I look forward to seeing what variants on existing throws the new rules bring to us, as well as how these rules may be adapted/ rethought/ abandoned, based on the practicalities of implementing them and the reception they get further down the Judo feeding chain.

You will see I have very few posts on the forum here. I don't make a habit of frequenting it, but felt strongly enough about the new rules to seek your opinion once I had seen your initial post. I probably shan't post again. I am rather disappointed in myself after managing to disgrace myself in the way I did. Safer if I don't. :->

Thank you Dr F.

God Bless.

[V.P.]

Dr. Rhadi Ferguson,

Doing a more philosophical question about the new rules:

Some months ago, in the BJJ world, a lot of questions were raised regarding the 50/50 guard. Some old people there had the same thoughts than the old guys from IJF. "Let's ban it!", "It's too hard to pass it!" but the ban didn't happen. Instead the top black belt in the world spent some time thinking about it and released, as youtube videos, ways to escape from it. What do you think about it? Isn't it a better approach? Maybe it's related with the plain old judo evolution (that basically don't exist) or because judo as olympic sport, all new techniques and tactics are treated as secret?

best regards,

VP

Dr. Rhadi Ferguson, on Jan 13 2010, 01:36 PM, said:

I accept your reply.In terms of me being upset. I'm not upset at all. I ONLY did Morote Gari because based upon the rules it was the best move that suited me based upon the time that I had and the level of mastery I would be able to achieve based upon my college wrestling experience and football experience. Also strategically it is a relatively safe move and it does sooooo many other things. (See www.MoroteGariDVD.com if interested). Now I am pissed that the IJF took some good money outta my pocket with this rule :-) but the BJJ folks are super excited about it. The rule changes are really kind of fun for me. I've had to think of a new system and tweak some of my current strategies and philosophies. I just had a client leave my house this past weekend and he called me yesterday so excited because all of the things that we covered worked in practice. This is an opportunity to adapt. If all I knew was Morote Gari, I'd be out of business! That was just a strategic approach that I used. That's it. It was the best one, for me, at the time. Now there is a new "morote gari" and it is __________. :-). This game is simple yet complex. As the rules close the options down, they actually make the science sweeter. The studies of close qtr combat and boxing, fencing and gripfighting are more important than ever.My client and I went over 4 hours of gripfighting info and he couldn't believe how much more there was to the game. Personally I DON'T have time to get upset about the rules. When the Pres. Of the Bahamian Judo Federation calls me and asks for the new technical and strength and conditioning directives based on the new rules, he doesn't want to hear nothing except what he has asked for and what he is paying for. Anything else and I will get FIRED. So "NO", I don't have the luxury to belly-ache and whine or complain. Whining or complaining is not part of my business model. It doesn't get reports written. It doesn't help analyze data and it does create new initiatives for development based upon the rules.

[Dr. Rhadi Ferguson]

The 50/50 guard is difficult to pass. What made is so frustrating is the beauty of BJJ lies in the development and use of the guard. Thus in traditional BJJ, we dont teach leg lock until the purple or brown belt level because if we do, it will thwart (or some believe) the development of ones guard. Personally, I've seen it happen, although there hasn't been any research done on that. The 50/50 guard, when learned, by default, introduces all the moves which are available from there and in many cases, footlocks are available. Because the the hard core introduction of no gi competition, the 50/50 guard and all of its variations and movements HAVE to be learned by the lower ranking players if they want to compete in no gi tourneys. The way that they make the adjustments when the get to gi is by eliminating all of the twisting leg locking movements and just using the positions with the gi to just sit in place. Even in no gi. Because if you come from a traditional school, you will never see the 50/50. I can tell you that I'm a BJJ black belt and I don't know it. And a Blue belt who does know it will beat me. Why? because I DON'T KNOW it.

The 50/50 is BJJ evolution at its best and worst. Because of the growth of grappling BJJ has spilled over into the world of grappling (no gi). But grappling with the gi and without the gi is different. Now BJJ is trying to hold on to their sport with the infusion of MMA and No Gi grappling into the market place. So what do they do? They begin trying to eliminate techniques. So that BJJ is BJJ and NOT Sambo. They try to come up with the BJJ No Gi Worlds so that they can keep their rules as is, even in the no gi world. When the key is to just accept the new techniques, teach what you teach, let your kids lose in the younger years, if they run up on a 50/50er and keep training until they've learned BJJ the way that you teach it and like to instruct it.

NOW........If you are coaching a competition team or competitors. YOU MUST LEARN THE 50/50 AND/OR bring in a 50/50 expert to give your team what they need. Period. No sense in arguing about that. Either adapt or lose. It's that simple. If you don't care about losing then that's okay. If you are there to teach a "quality brand" of BJJ and let your students figure out the "tricks of the trade" later, that's cool too. I believe they'll be able to learn it faster after learning the right stuff first. BUT THAT'S A TIME ISSUE!! Meaning, how much time does the fighter have to be an elite level fighter? That timeline is increased in BJJ because the life of the competitor is longer due to BJJ being a sport that doesn't mirror judo in terms of impact.

The bottom line, is this.... the 50./50 guard ain't bad. It's good. The thinkers will find a way.

The front head lock was all the rave. Then the throw by from the bottom was all the rave (both brought over from wrestling). To stop the throw-by when applying the front headlock developed the Darce and anaconda movements.

Evolution for the sport is good.

These new Judo rules "squeeze" the area of play. All that does is make the "science" sweeter. Study boxing. You'll learn alot about hand iterations, movement patterns, feints, setups and distance. Tai Sabaki in boxing is probably one of the best moves a boxer can use. ;-)

[V.P.]

Hi Dr. Rhadi Ferguson,

was nice to read that actually your opinion about 50/50 is right. it impressed me, i never expected that! My wife, was european champion in judo and bunch of times national champ. I added in her game a boxing move (Bob and Weave) against a higher grip going to te-guruma. Unfortunately it is banned today, but because she was shorter than her opponents it worked like charm.

I'm Brazilian BJJ blackbelt isolated in the middle of europe. Even here i can see BJJ evolution and i'm excited about new techniques and new possibilities that we have daily. Speaking about BJJ rules they try to avoid just rules that bring excessive enjuries as close a triangle over the knee, neck crank or heel locks.

The literature and other medias is growing up and there is actually some good material to use. I'm trainer and that is good to have some material as support. My problem with judo, and i'm teaching it for group under 14 years old is that i don't see more things being developed in judo except tactics, strategy and power training. As you stated in one video, and i totally agree, they are so important or more than techniques. But speaking about technique, the best book about judo are the books from sensei Okano - Vital judo (from 1960/70?). Guess what? if you check the "grappling book" he used to do "arm drag" and "de lariva" guard. So that was judo.

anyway, thanks for you last answer, i will read it one more time, to really get all subliminal messages there ;-)

Dr. Rhadi Ferguson, on Jan 15 2010, 05:01 PM, said:

The 50/50 guard is difficult to pass. What made is so frustrating is the beauty of BJJ lies in the development and use of the guard. Thus in traditional BJJ, we dont teach leg lock until the purple or brown belt level because if we do, it will thwart (or some believe) the development of ones guard. Personally, I've seen it happen, although there hasn't been any research done on that. The 50/50 guard, when learned, by default, introduces all the moves which are available from there and in many cases, footlocks are available. Because the the hard core introduction of no gi competition, the 50/50 guard and all of its variations and movements HAVE to be learned by the lower ranking players if they want to compete in no gi tourneys. The way that they make the adjustments when the get to gi is by eliminating all of the twisting leg locking movements and just using the positions with the gi to just sit in place. Even in no gi. Because if you come from a traditional school, you will never see the 50/50. I can tell you that I'm a BJJ black belt and I don't know it. And a Blue belt who does know it will beat me. Why? because I DON'T KNOW it.

The 50/50 is BJJ evolution at its best and worst. Because of the growth of grappling BJJ has spilled over into the world of grappling (no gi). But grappling with the gi and without the gi is different. Now BJJ is trying to hold on to their sport with the infusion of MMA and No Gi grappling into the market place. So what do they do? They begin trying to eliminate techniques. So that BJJ is BJJ and NOT Sambo. They try to come up with the BJJ No Gi Worlds so that they can keep their rules as is, even in the no gi world. When the key is to just accept the new techniques, teach what you teach, let your kids lose in the younger years, if they run up on a 50/50er and keep training until they've learned BJJ the way that you teach it and like to instruct it.

NOW........If you are coaching a competition team or competitors. YOU MUST LEARN THE 50/50 AND/OR bring in a 50/50 expert to give your team what they need. Period. No sense in arguing about that. Either adapt or lose. It's that simple. If you don't care about losing then that's okay. If you are there to teach a "quality brand" of BJJ and let your students figure out the "tricks of the trade" later, that's cool too. I believe they'll be able to learn it faster after learning the right stuff first. BUT THAT'S A TIME ISSUE!! Meaning, how much time does the fighter have to be an elite level fighter? That timeline is increased in BJJ because the life of the competitor is longer due to BJJ being a sport that doesn't mirror judo in terms of impact.

The bottom line, is this.... the 50./50 guard ain't bad. It's good. The thinkers will find a way.

The front head lock was all the rave. Then the throw by from the bottom was all the rave (both brought over from wrestling). To stop the throw-by when applying the front headlock developed the Darce and anaconda movements.

Evolution for the sport is good.

These new Judo rules "squeeze" the area of play. All that does is make the "science" sweeter. Study boxing. You'll learn alot about hand iterations, movement patterns, feints, setups and distance. Tai Sabaki in boxing is probably one of the best moves a boxer can use. ;-)

[JohnGrove]

Gaijin Judoka, on Aug 27 2009, 11:02 AM, said:

Not at all, and the point is I don't want it to be limited.

Amen

We are becoming a bunch of specialist in "throwing". In terms of self defense we are becoming weaker. In terms of newaza, we are becoming weaker.

This post has been edited by JohnGrove: 23 January 2010 - 09:06 PM