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#1 User is offline   blood+ 

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 01:45 PM

Hi everyone,

I have been training in Judo for the past few months and am loving it so far. A friend of mine is interested in learning Krav Maga for self-defence and has asked me if I would like to start learning it with him. I would be interested in learning it, because I am planning on working in the middle east soon and would like to feel a bit more confident in some of the more dangerous areas.

Would learning Krav Maga interfere or impede my progress in Judo at all? Does anybody here learn both disciplines, that could give me some advice on to what degree they may compliment or conflict with each other. Judo offers a very high degree of control and in terms of self defense, emphasises minimal harm to the attacker in most situations, I understand Krav Maga is quite the opposite. Any imput on this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
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#2 User is offline   odujjudo 

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 02:23 PM

This would probably be best placed in the combat and self defence or other martial arts sub forums.

However, one of the most common sayings i have heard in respect to all martial arts is that is it is the artist not the art that determines it's effectiveness.
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#3 User is offline   blood+ 

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 02:33 PM

Hi, yes, I was unsure where to post this topic.

I wasn't really getting at whether Krav Maga is effective or not. I am just concerned that learning two disciplines that share quite different aims might impeded my Judo progress.

Judo, as far as I am aware is very effective in terms of self defence and neutralisation of attacks. Don't the police in Japan train in Judo for this reason?
Krav Maga, as far as i am aware, must be quite effective if it is the staple of the Israeli Defense Force (IDF), Mossad and their Special Ops units.
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#4 User is offline   rberry13 

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 02:54 PM

View Postblood+, on Jun 20 2009, 09:45 AM, said:

Hi everyone,

I have been training in Judo for the past few months and am loving it so far. A friend of mine is interested in learning Krav Maga for self-defence and has asked me if I would like to start learning it with him. I would be interested in learning it, because I am planning on working in the middle east soon and would like to feel a bit more confident in some of the more dangerous areas.

Would learning Krav Maga interfere or impede my progress in Judo at all? Does anybody here learn both disciplines, that could give me some advice on to what degree they may compliment or conflict with each other. Judo offers a very high degree of control and in terms of self defense, emphasises minimal harm to the attacker in most situations, I understand Krav Maga is quite the opposite. Any imput on this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

I do not think that studying Krav Maga will impair your progress in judo, if I understand your concern correctly.

One aspect of training in Krav Maga is emphasis on multiple attackers from random directions. You probably won't have time or space to execute a pretty uchi mata, but an o soto gari or o goshi is plausible.

There is a very old saying, "Train the way you want to fight, because you will fight the way you train." If you are heading to the middle east (as a contractor, I presume?) you are wise to consider personal safety. Krav Maga training will at least give you the experience of being pushed about by multiple attackers, so if, God forbid, it ever happens for real, it will feel more familiar. You could train against a multiple attacker scenario in judo (we have done it infrequently at my school), but it will never have the emphasis that it does in Krav Maga.

I guess the short answer is that you will be able to apply some of your judo techniques in Krav Maga, and focus on the multiple attackers cannot hurt.

I caution you not view the referee at your next shiai as an attacker! Hansokumake! :lol:
There is no end to training. Once you begin to feel that you are masters, you are no longer getting on the way you are to follow.
-Hagakure Bushido
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#5 User is offline   blood+ 

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 03:06 PM

Thanks for your thoughts. I think that what is concerning me is learning techniques, that become automatic reactions, that might really hurt somebody if used in an inappropriate situation, say calmming down a drunk friend or even in randori.
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#6 User is offline   rberry13 

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 03:14 PM

View Postblood+, on Jun 20 2009, 11:06 AM, said:

Thanks for your thoughts. I think that what is concerning me is learning techniques, that become automatic reactions, that might really hurt somebody if used in an inappropriate situation, say calmming down a drunk friend or even in randori.

It will probably be a while before you are the next Jason Bourne. :P
There is no end to training. Once you begin to feel that you are masters, you are no longer getting on the way you are to follow.
-Hagakure Bushido
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#7 User is offline   blood+ 

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 03:17 PM

View Postrberry13, on Jun 20 2009, 03:14 PM, said:

It will probably be a while before you are the next Jason Bourne. :P



hahaha, I was talking to a friend who just said the same thing
:P
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#8 User is offline   kikoolol 

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 04:52 PM

I'd honestly consider something else.

If nothing else, Krav Maga is extremely spotty in terms of quality control. Trained correctly, it can be OK. Not trained correctly (which sadly is the case more often), it's not much more than a good workout.

If your friend and yourself are adamant about training KM, I'd suggest you take a real good look at instructors. Ask their rank, their level (two different things), experience, etc.

As for training two arts at the same time, I can't give you an answer, that depends on you. I would try it, at the very least. I wouldn't be able to do it (I'm the kind of person that focuses on one thing at a time).

This post has been edited by kikoolol: 20 June 2009 - 04:53 PM

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#9 User is offline   trevzilla 

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 12:04 AM

I agree that you should make sure your instructor is qualified. I'm pretty sure there are quite a few imitators out there, but if you can find a good instructor, good for you.

As for it hindering your Judo... Probably not. I know plenty of people who wrestle and do judo, the biggest issue is compartmentalizing (is that a word?) the ruleset, but since you seem to be concerned with self defense, there's no problem there.

Your experience with judo should actually help you quite a bit with KM though... The guy who is given most of the credit for developing KM (Monik Aziz, or something like that) said in an interview that his martial arts experience was in trad. jujitsu, and judo, and that in developing the fighting system he primarily drew from his knowledge of them. That is my memory of the interview anyway. Actually it was that show where the two guys would train in a martial art for a week, and then go for it with an "expert" at the end of the week... I dont remember the name of it.

I hope it works out for you, I've always been a little intrigued by KM, but I am not aware of anywhere around my house that teaches it. From what I know it is very much about having an attack first and attack hard mindset.

Edit: The mans name was Moni Aizik, but he was the founder of "Combat Krav Maga"... Apparently his claim that he modified Krav Maga with its original "Founder?" Imi Lichtenfeld has been called into question. The show was Human Weapon, and although Moni Aizik did appear in the episode featuring Krav Maga, this was not the interview I had in mind. It was very confusing, looking in to it... there were so many different Krav Maga "systems". I think with some money, and 90 days, you too can be certified to teach Krav Maga. And for an additional 100 dollars, you will recieve an official artificial Israe-lee defence forces patch.

This post has been edited by trevzilla: 21 June 2009 - 01:44 AM

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#10 User is offline   Nani Kore 

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 03:34 PM

Judo=Mutual welfare and benefit
Krav Maga=How to kill or maim your opponent in the most effective way

There might be a conflict here! :hap:
Open your eyes, then open them again.
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#11 User is offline   Ga. Nidan 

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 03:53 PM

I personally think it is a good fit with judo.
Truth is truth whether or not you believe it.
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#12 User is offline   danguy 

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 05:22 PM

View PostNani Kore, on Jun 21 2009, 08:34 AM, said:

Judo=Mutual welfare and benefit
Krav Maga=How to kill or maim your opponent in the most effective way

There might be a conflict here! :hap:

In my day job, we prefer the Judo approach, but expect the other when confronted with weapons in close range. They can balance, but one must apply to the circumstance.
If I am doing "win," sloppy and sissy is fine; if I am doing Judo, beautiful is my rule and goal. Judo is far more important and rewarding than "win."

"What you are as a person is far more important than what you are as a basketball [Judo] player." --John Wooden 1910-2010

"You should first try to negotiate nicely but you can be strong after there's resistance, and know, just like in judo, when to catch them." --Rusty Kanokogi, 2008, on negotiating.
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#13 User is offline   blood+ 

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 01:25 PM

I am looking for something to compliment my Judo training. I have a friend who has done various security courses and will soon be starting his new job as a security guard. He has received some basic training in restraining individuals as part of his training, although he is looking to learn something that will give him some more confidence in this position. Ideally, I would like to train in something with him - to help him stay motivated - he has problems sticking with things as he doesnt have a car and me being able to drive him would help him stick at something long enough.

I have suggested Judo on so many occasions that he refuses to even talk about it anymore - he thinks the learning curve is too long for Judo. I actually believe Judo would be best suited for his security work as it enables a lot of control over how much force can be used to restrain someone, but he is quite adamant about learning something with striking and a fast proficiency curve.

So far i have been unable to locate a good Krav Mage school in Melbourne, the ones I have checked out so far seem a bit McDojo style to me, (ones that teach several different martial arts, and are quite vague in regards to their training and affiliation with any particular international or even national organisation.

He has expressed interest in Systema and Silat, as well as Krav Maga. I am happy to try anything really, as long as it does not impede or complicate my Judo training. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Does anybody here crosstrain in Systema, Silat or Krav Maga alongside their Judo?
Are there any good places in Melbourne that people can reccomend for these disciplines, I have done a lot of research but i can't find anything that seems to be of a high quality standard.

Any advice would be much appreciated.
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#14 User is offline   Giaus Jujutsu Caeser 

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 02:42 PM

Alot of known Krav Maga instructors are also Judoka and/ or Jujutsuka.
The lady who was the Krav inst. from the Fight Quest show was also a Judo champ in the M.E.
Moni Azikof Commando Krav Maga is a Judoka/Jujutsuka. (I saw him teach at Fighthouse in NYC whil;e Mike Mahler and I were doing a KB workshop and wanted to stop working and go join in. I also have a friend who is an instr. in Azik's system and I like what I have seen.)

Judo and Jujutsu were important to Kapap and Krav Magas formation.

A good buddy, who is a shodan with our school (Jujutsu) a Nidan in Judo and a Wing Chung inst. has been training with a group of Krav guys and he is seriously into it. The man is a Mrine officer and has been to war 3 times, so his oppinion on combat, aremd or unarmed carries some heavy weight with me.

RBSD (as long as it's rooted in 'Reality" and a Traditional art, are a great cocktail IMO.
You hedge your bets by trainiong simple and brutal tecniques and tactics while also developing better atrtributes throught the art.

We allways have discussions here about Trad v Sport, Sport v RBSD for SD, yaddah, yaddah and the truth (from my POV) is that all sides have valid points, so hedge your bets and crosstrain.

CQC helped my Jujutsu (Adding more KISS), Kali/Silat has helped them both (Better footwork, entry skill and power generation as well as better blade and blunt insturment skills) and the boxing/kickiboxing type training we have been adding this year have helped everything.

If you practice waza with intent and focus, train in shorthand, brutal techniques and do some sparring then you have coverd alot of ground and are on your way to being well rounded and adaptable, very good traits for a martial artist if he is concerned with SD from minor situations that do not warent destruction to life and death.

Shugyo!
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#15 User is offline   poison 

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 09:57 AM

Check here for genuine krav instructors:

http://www.kravmaga.com.au/

I'm not saying it'll guarantee quality, but it should help. BTW, I trained krav in Israel in an official capacity. If you can find a real-deal instructor, it's as good a crash course in 'how to stay alive' as it gets. Judo will take you way farther, if you dedicate the time, but krav's learning curve is very low, so progress and abilities skyrocket quickly. BTW, I have the US national Krav headquarters across from my dojo. I'm doing judo. Figure that out. :D

Krav complements judo immensely (or any fighting art). Even though goals, philosophies, and methods differ, they fill in the gaps for each other. Krav's strength is in putting you in realistic, real life scenarios, under as much stress (physical and mental) as possible, and teaching you how to deal with it and stay alive (and/or kill the other guy if that's your deal/job). Obviously judo has the tools to accomplish this, the problem is few dojo's put you in the position to learn to apply judo under those circumstances. Judo isn't going to teach you what to do with a gun to your head at the ATM. Krav will, and they'll blindfold you and throw some water on the floor too, or take you out in a rocky field. You may be a great striker or judoka, but if you've never had a knife or gun pointed your way, your response is likely to suck. How you train is how you fight. Period.

You could apply judo techniques to krav situational awareness and responses, and kick ass. If you're a competent judoka, you'll likely suck at the knees, elbows, and strikes of krav, but if they allow you to respond to situations with your judo, it won't matter. And the fighting basis of judo will give you an automatic edge as far as reflexes, coordination, and responses.

I say go for it. Oh, one more word: Krav was forged in the crucible of Islamic terror, suicide and otherwise. This affected the krav mentality greatly; when the other guys goal is to kill you and as many others as possible, and wants to die himself, the outcome has been set by him. There's no negotiation, speed is vital, and ANYTHING is allowed to end the scenario with you alive and him out of commission. Krav is very 'hard', aggressive, and you try to dominate, dictate, and change the terms of the conflict to your favor, because you are nearly always at a disadvantage as the 'good guy', due to his element of surprise. 'Mutual benefit' is there, in the survival of innocents and the injury or death of the terrorist (that's tongue in cheek). And krav won't make you a great fighter. You'll suck at squaring off. But you will be way more durable, and more likely to survive aggressive deadly violence than any non-krav practitioner, fighter or no.

This post has been edited by poison: 09 July 2009 - 09:58 AM

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Out of every 100 men, ten shouldn't even be there, Eighty are just targets, Nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." - Hericletus, circa 500 BC
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