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Evolution of Ju Changes in the Kata Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Blind Dog 

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Post icon  Posted 08 June 2009 - 04:46 PM

I know that the Ju-no-kata we are taught today is a standardized way of performing this kata. I'm curious why a few of the techniques look so different than the kata done by kano in old footage video I have seen (I.E. Specifically Tsuki-Dashi, Katate-Dori, Obi-Dori, and Ryogan-Tsuki). I like the way he executes the kata. The lifts the fitting the posture, the tai sabaki... Is there a reason why some the kata done now is so radically changed?

If this has already been addressed, please direct me to that thread.
Thanks

This post has been edited by Blind Dog: 08 June 2009 - 04:51 PM

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#2 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 05:10 PM

View PostBlind Dog, on Jun 9 2009, 01:46 AM, said:

I know that the Ju-no-kata we are taught today is a standardized way of performing this kata. I'm curious why a few of the techniques look so different than the kata done by kano in old footage video I have seen (I.E. Specifically Tsuki-Dashi, Katate-Dori, Obi-Dori, and Ryogan-Tsuki). I like the way he executes the kata. The lifts the fitting the posture, the tai sabaki... Is there a reason why some the kata done now is so radically changed?

If this has already been addressed, please direct me to that thread.
Thanks


I fear that is not Kano, unlike what the legend might say. There only exists pictures of Kano doing ju-no-kata, which are included in TPL's book on ju-no-kata.
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
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#3 User is offline   Blind Dog 

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 05:30 PM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Jun 8 2009, 12:10 PM, said:

I fear that is not Kano, unlike what the legend might say.
Thank you sensei, that explains a lot, right there. I will give it much less wieght in the evaluation of my practice.

This post has been edited by Blind Dog: 08 June 2009 - 05:31 PM

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#4 User is offline   NBK 

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 08:51 PM

So, any idea as to who they are?I like the pacing - faster than watching paint dry!


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#5 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 08:53 AM

View PostNBK, on Jun 9 2009, 05:51 AM, said:

So, any idea as to who they are?I like the pacing - faster than watching paint dry!


The uke is clearly Nagaoka-sensei. Speculations have been made that the tori might be Isogai. It isn't Yamashita, though Yamashita worked a lot with Nagaoka, because there is a clip with Koshiki-no-kata from the same performance which shows Yamashita that day having considerably more and very grey hair. Moreover, Yamashita did not wear a mustache at old age.

There is nothing fast about the how ju-no-kata is performed, only how the limit of technique caused by the insufficient 20 (or lower) frame per second rate and what it visually does as it mismatches the perception of our eyes.

One thing you need to know about the old silent movies. Sure, they were shot at slower speeds than today's movies. But the main thing was that the camera was hand cranked. The only form of speed regulation was the cameraman going "one one thousand, two one thousand" as he rotated the handle. As a result, there wasn't any such thing as a standard silent speed. Old flicks ran at anywhere from 12 to 22 frames per second, with 16-20 fps being about average up through the early 1920s.

Many old movie hands, far from being annoyed by this, kind of liked it. They thought of the speed of the movie as being like the tempo in music. Near-normal speed might be OK for your basic dramatic exposition. But during the comedy or chase scenes you wanted things to really rip.

With the advent of sound in the late 1920s the industry switched to a standard speed of 24 frames per second. There were two reasons for this. First, it was the average speed of most silents then being made--there had been a steady increase in projection speeds during the 20s as theater owners tried to cram in more showings per night and movie directors sped up their cameras to compensate. Second, 24 fps was the minimum necessary to produce decent sound quality. The faster the film's sound track ran through the projector, the more sound information you got per second, and the better the fidelity.

Some movie projectors made right after the switch had two speeds, 16 (or 18) fps and 24 fps, and the operator could use whichever speed best suited the movie being shown. But nowadays many projectors have only one speed, 24 frames per second. Run a 16 fps silent through a 24 fps projector and the action gets sped up 50 percent.

Today it's possible to produce normal-speed versions of the older silents through a process known as stretch printing, in which roughly every other frame is printed twice. The result is slightly jerky but watchable and has been used in contemporary films to achieve a period feel. But it's tedious and expensive and many film labs hate to do it, so it's mostly reserved for special projects.

Better results can be achieved with less trouble when transferring silents to videotape. In fact, some of the best versions we have of the old silents (that is, that most closely approximate the way they were meant to be seen) are those specially prepared for TV.

Which brings me back to my original point. The old silents weren't necessarily meant to move at the same speed as today's flicks. In some old silents, comedies in particular, things were supposed to be speeded up, the better to enhance the comic effect. Chase scenes in the Keystone Cops flicks, for example, were often shot at 8-12 fps but projected maybe twice as fast. Today the frantic action in old Chaplin and Keystone Cops films strikes us as hilarious--but people thought the same thing in 1915.

This post has been edited by Cichorei Kano: 09 June 2009 - 12:37 PM

"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
"I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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#6 User is offline   NBK 

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 12:23 PM

:o ?

Still better than watching paint dry.....

Thanks....... I think.....


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#7 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 12:39 PM

View PostNBK, on Jun 9 2009, 09:23 PM, said:

:o ?

Still better than watching paint dry.....

Thanks....... I think.....


I simply meant to say ... we can't judge the real pace of the performance because of the effects caused by the insufficient number of frames shot in the movie. The eye needs minimally 24 frames per second in order to perceive a filmed action at the correct speed.

You know, watching paint dry can actually be really exciting. Unfortunately, to prove so, I would have to revert to my collection of pictures, which likely might will have some people jump up and down to have me banned. -_-

This post has been edited by Cichorei Kano: 09 June 2009 - 12:41 PM

"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
"I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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#8 User is offline   Durendart 

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 12:51 PM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Jun 9 2009, 12:39 PM, said:

I simply meant to say ... we can't judge the real pace of the performance because of the effects caused by the insufficient number of frames shot in the movie. The eye needs minimally 24 frames per second in order to perceive a filmed action at the correct speed.

You know, watching paint dry can actually be really exciting. Unfortunately, to prove so, I would have to revert to my collection of pictures, which likely might will have some people jump up and down to have me banned. -_-




Where do you get this stuff CK? :huh:
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#9 User is offline   Blind Dog 

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 02:19 PM

An average pace for Ju no kata in National level competition demonstrations is between 6-8 minutes (from stats and personal timekeeping). My partner and I shot for 12 minutes at the '08 US Open and according to our scores, was way to slow. We did it that slow because at the Fukuda Invitational one of the sensei at the clinic said that Dr. Kano wanted the ladies to practice at a pace of 15-18 minutes to show everything about the kata. She said it was grueling and sweat drenched their keikogi. Good for understanding the ri-ai, but maybe not for demos I guess.

I like the musical tempo reference and I agree, this kata is musical. Shepard sensei even recommends practicing to music for beginners of the kata to help with the pace.

So, "Jack" sensei,
Since you brought up "pace".... What pace do you feel best demonstrates the essence of Ju no kata?
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#10 User is offline   wdax 

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 03:14 PM

View PostBlind Dog, on Jun 9 2009, 04:19 PM, said:

An average pace for Ju no kata in National level competition demonstrations is between 6-8 minutes (from stats and personal timekeeping). My partner and I shot for 12 minutes at the '08 US Open and according to our scores, was way to slow. We did it that slow because at the Fukuda Invitational one of the sensei at the clinic said that Dr. Kano wanted the ladies to practice at a pace of 15-18 minutes to show everything about the kata. She said it was grueling and sweat drenched their keikogi. Good for understanding the ri-ai, but maybe not for demos I guess.

I like the musical tempo reference and I agree, this kata is musical. Shepard sensei even recommends practicing to music for beginners of the kata to help with the pace.

The overall time for the kata is not only dependend of the pace of the techniques, but also of the movements in beetween. Two or three seconds more or less between each techniques will result in half a minute or more in the end. Holding the lifts and going down can also make a difference of some seconds and this can - togehter with pauses between the techniques - sum up to a minute at the end.

But does this make any difference concerning the quality of the kata? No, looking at the stopwatch while/after performing a kata is plain nonsense!

Kata is created for some reasons - in case of ju-no-kata it´s physical education (stretching, strengthening, coordination, balance), theory ("ju") and technique (tai-sabaki, kuzushi, atemi, ...). So we have to practise the kata in a pace that allows us to draw out the best benefit. So it´s the best to do it sometimes slower and sometimes faster... but never with a stopwatch in our hand....

Music IMHO is not a very good idea. The pace of the kata is the rhythm of attack and defence. So the kata has an internal rhythm. If we practise with music then we adopt our movements to an external rhythm, which will cause problems in finding the rhythm of attack end defence.

Ju-no-Kata is judo - not a dance! But of course, if you have taped it and add f.e. piano music, it´s very nice to see....

This post has been edited by wdax: 09 June 2009 - 03:26 PM

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#11 User is offline   Blind Dog 

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 02:05 PM

View Postwdax, on Jun 9 2009, 10:14 AM, said:

... looking at the stopwatch while/after performing a kata is plain nonsense!... but never with a stopwatch in our hand....

I agree. But with all the variables there is still an overall time achieved.
I don't think there should be pauses between techniques in the kata, IMO. I think it should flow from one to the other.

I was asking more about the rhythms and where the pace should be slower and quicker. Should the lifts be executed slower to show control? The exchanges showing the "Ju" should they be done quicker so they are smoother?

So, more precisely...
My question is: If executed at a comfortable, normal pace, where should you slow down or quicken the kata for emphasis?

This post has been edited by Blind Dog: 11 June 2009 - 02:06 PM

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