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1886 Tokyo Police "Judo vs Jujutsu" What rules were used? Rate Topic: -----

#1 Guest_Guest_Gunther_guest

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Posted 04 January 2005 - 01:43 PM

I've been reading some online materials regarding this event and i'm wondering what set of rules were used were used during the "The Great Tournament Between Kodokan Judo's Four Heavenly Lords and the Jujutsu Masters".

Any judo scholar here who knows the rules?
I'm really curious about this event.
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#2 User is offline   Mongo 

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Posted 04 January 2005 - 04:14 PM

I know the rules were set by Kano Sensei and that they were somehow favorable for judokas. What specific rules were used, I have not heard/read.
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#3 User is offline   Gaijin Judoka 

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Posted 04 January 2005 - 05:07 PM

http://www.furyu.com...ssue3/judo.html
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#4 User is offline   JeffBruner 

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Posted 04 January 2005 - 06:01 PM

I recommend the full article linked to by Gaijin Judoka, but for the lazy here are rules vaguely stated, quoted from the article:

Quote

The duels were probably closer to the original intent of the word shiai,  which now means "match" or tournament, but once referred to shi-ni-ai;  to symbolically meet death itself. There were no yuuko or koka  (half or quarter points). You scored with a full ippon point; throws,  chokes, holds or arm locks that would, in an actual situation, completely  overwhelm your opponent. And the time limit was up to the judge. You usually  went until someone dropped from sheer exhaustion or the judge ended it, awarding the match to the clear victor. Truly, it was shi-ni-ai.



In the description of Saigo's match, it is mentioned that Saigo scored a number of ippons before the match was called and another match is said to have gone 55 minutes.
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#5 User is offline   judojohn 

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Posted 04 January 2005 - 07:46 PM

can you imagine the endurance needed to play judo in shiai for 55 minutes? incredible! :manoyes:
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#6 User is offline   merelymortal 

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Posted 06 January 2005 - 02:34 PM

"And the fearsome little scrapper from northern Aizu province, Saigo Shiro."

amen!

i read about this in a book called mastering jujutsu by renzo gracie, judo won 10 of the twelve contests and drew two lol
WARNING: THE ABOVE OPINION HAS BEEN POSTED BY A WHITE BELT, PLEASE DISREGARD IT. THE ABOVE OPINION IN NO WAY REPRESENTS THE OPINION OF KODOKAN JUDO IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. ANY AGREEMENTS BETWEEN THE TWO PARTIES ARE PURELY COINCIDENTAL.
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#7 User is offline   Kozushi 

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Posted 07 January 2005 - 06:17 PM

Judo won 11 of the twelve, having only one draw.
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#8 User is offline   kuma 

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Posted 08 January 2005 - 08:46 AM

judojohn, on Jan 5 2005, 04:46 AM, said:

can you imagine the endurance needed to play judo in shiai for 55 minutes? incredible! :manoyes:

masahiko kimura lasted for 3 hours! :manoyes:
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#9 User is offline   finarashi 

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Posted 08 January 2005 - 09:06 AM

The longest grappling matc in modern times might be the 1912 Olympic wrestling final between a Finn Asikainen and a Russian Klein (although both actually represented the same country). The match was won by Klein after 11 hours and 40 minutes.
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#10 User is offline   finarashi 

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Posted 08 January 2005 - 09:23 AM

I'd recommend you all not to believe everything what has been written about the famous 1886 Tokyo Police match. If you look at various sources they do not agree on the number of wins. Nobody kept score. SCORE WAS NOT IMPORTANT!

The schools probably lined up their students the weakest first. The last pair was most probably considered the 'best' of each school. So that win was actually what the watchers were most interested in.

There is no doubt that the match was decisively won by Kodokan Judo.

To further confuse the issue a bestelling (in Japan) book and later a movie about that book was published in Japan. The book (neither the film) never ever claimed to represent historical truth but many people get their facts from the book.

Then some want to push their own art and present 'lies' by claiming Saigo not to be a representative of Kodokan Judo but from some other jiu-jitsu school. Historical fact show that Saigo started training Judo at age 15.

What is blatant lie is the claim that Saigo's throw Yama-arashi is 'forgotten'. Look at any historical judo books. They show Yama-arashi in its present form. The fact that Yama-arashi isn't main stream (=rare) does not mean that no-one knows anymore how this throw looked like.
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#11 Guest_Guest_guest

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Posted 08 January 2005 - 01:54 PM

Yama Arashi = Eri Tai Otoshi

It is featured in Niel Adam's book on Grips. Saigo's was probably pretty special.
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#12 User is offline   Ranma 

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Posted 08 January 2005 - 10:40 PM

so what were the rules? I imagine if they were randori rules it'd be a great advantage to judo.
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#13 User is offline   Per 

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Posted 12 January 2005 - 02:45 PM

finarashi, on Jan 8 2005, 09:06 AM, said:

The longest grappling matc in modern times might be the 1912 Olympic wrestling final between a Finn Asikainen and a Russian Klein (although both actually represented the same country). The match was won by Klein after 11 hours and 40 minutes.

The 1912 Olympic Games in Stockholm was indeed special for the wrestlers. Apart from the 11-hour match between Asikainen and Klein there was also a match between Anders Ahlgren of Sweden and Ivar Bohling of Finland in the 90 kg weight class. After 9 hours of wrestling - under a scorching sun - the match was called a draw. They were both awarded silver medals - no gold medal was given.
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#14 Guest_LiteBlu_guest

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Posted 02 February 2005 - 09:05 AM

This tournament between the Kodokan and the Jujutsu masters sounds more like a no time limit submission grappling tournament than a judo shiai! It sounds like there were no time limit for newaza or win for ippon throws!
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#15 User is offline   Geoff 

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Post icon  Posted 02 February 2005 - 10:18 PM

What the books and the film don't tell you is that Royce Gracie took them all on in a line up immediately after the contest and jujigatamed them all!
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