[NBK]

I dropped this note into the thread on the 'resurrection' of Go-no-Kata (actually about Daigo sensei's Jan 2009 Judo mag article recognizing GNK as an historic judo kata, with no responses, so, here we go again.

There was an '11th' judo kata in Japan...... I have a WWII era reference to an 'Atemi-no-Kata' and pix of it being practiced by chubby schoolboys in knee pants, complete with punching makiwara, and it was written by a very well known, high ranking judoka.

A genuine, heartfelt 'attaboy' from NBK for anyone that can

1) cite the derivation of Atemi-no-Kata

2) cite the author.

I'm still looking for additional citations of this, but the gent that wrote this certainly knew his way around judo, was a very celebrated judoka, well published. A tiny piece of this is in an article I'm finishing up now.

Cheers,

鑓

PS - Kano himself said that there were multiple versions of Ju-no-Kata in the Butokukai, but that the Kodokan only practiced one, which was sufficient.Any idea where to find the other Ju-no-Kata?

[kodokanjudo]

NBK, on Jan 29 2009, 11:08 AM, said:

I dropped this note into the thread on the 'resurrection' of Go-no-Kata (actually about Daigo sensei's Jan 2009 Judo mag article recognizing GNK as an historic judo kata, with no responses, so, here we go again.

There was an '11th' judo kata in Japan...... I have a WWII era reference to an 'Atemi-no-Kata' and pix of it being practiced by chubby schoolboys in knee pants, complete with punching makiwara, and it was written by a very well known, high ranking judoka.

A genuine, heartfelt 'attaboy' from NBK for anyone that can

1) cite the derivation of Atemi-no-Kata

2) cite the author.

I'm still looking for additional citations of this, but the gent that wrote this certainly knew his way around judo, was a very celebrated judoka, well published. A tiny piece of this is in an article I'm finishing up now.

Cheers,

鑓

PS - Kano himself said that there were multiple versions of Ju-no-Kata in the Butokukai, but that the Kodokan only practiced one, which was sufficient.Any idea where to find the other Ju-no-Kata?

I remember CK-sensei and Akeru-sensei touching on those other forms of ju-no-kata in an old kata topic here some years ago.
As far as a form of atemi-no-kata, I am not sure but I believe that Kimura (in his autobiography) mentions doing something of the sort in the school system when he was a boy.

[Sir Harry Flashman]

My Goodness, if you find this, do you realize what will happen? If all the threads on Judo versus strikers are any indication, this will absolutely ruin the exclusive club we know as kata. It will be as Yogi Berra once said about some particular restaurant: "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded."

[kodokanjudo]

Sir Harry Flashman, on Jan 29 2009, 12:45 PM, said:

My Goodness, if you find this, do you realize what will happen? If all the threads on Judo versus strikers are any indication, this will absolutely ruin the exclusive club we know as kata. It will be as Yogi Berra once said about some particular restaurant: "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded."

Ah yes, one of my favorite "Yogi'isms"!

This post has been edited by kodokanjudo: 29 January 2009 - 08:21 PM

[JudoSicilia]

NBK, on Jan 29 2009, 12:08 PM, said:

I dropped this note into the thread on the 'resurrection' of Go-no-Kata (actually about Daigo sensei's Jan 2009 Judo mag article recognizing GNK as an historic judo kata, with no responses, so, here we go again.

There was an '11th' judo kata in Japan...... I have a WWII era reference to an 'Atemi-no-Kata' and pix of it being practiced by chubby schoolboys in knee pants, complete with punching makiwara, and it was written by a very well known, high ranking judoka.

A genuine, heartfelt 'attaboy' from NBK for anyone that can

1) cite the derivation of Atemi-no-Kata

2) cite the author.

I'm still looking for additional citations of this, but the gent that wrote this certainly knew his way around judo, was a very celebrated judoka, well published. A tiny piece of this is in an article I'm finishing up now.

Cheers,

鑓

PS - Kano himself said that there were multiple versions of Ju-no-Kata in the Butokukai, but that the Kodokan only practiced one, which was sufficient.Any idea where to find the other Ju-no-Kata?

A very intresting question...the judo word need an Atemi no Kata....

[NBK]

Not sure what Taigyo meant.

I already have the entire 'Atemi-no-Kata', and know the author of the kata and the reporter from WWII. Was just wondering if anyone else had ever heard of it. A real oddity, I reckon.

However, I don't have a clue about the other Ju-no-Kata. I assume some if not all were from the Butokukai.

I think that the position of Ju-no-Kata prewar was very different. Many books take a large portion of the beginning of the pages to explain Ju-no-Kata in great detail. It seems to have been used as warm-up / exercise / flexibility training / general conditioning.... Gee, just as Kano meant it to be.

[Cichorei Kano]

NBK, on Jan 29 2009, 08:08 PM, said:

I dropped this note into the thread on the 'resurrection' of Go-no-Kata (actually about Daigo sensei's Jan 2009 Judo mag article recognizing GNK as an historic judo kata, with no responses, so, here we go again.

There was an '11th' judo kata in Japan...... I have a WWII era reference to an 'Atemi-no-Kata' and pix of it being practiced by chubby schoolboys in knee pants, complete with punching makiwara, and it was written by a very well known, high ranking judoka.

A genuine, heartfelt 'attaboy' from NBK for anyone that can

1) cite the derivation of Atemi-no-Kata

2) cite the author.

I'm still looking for additional citations of this, but the gent that wrote this certainly knew his way around judo, was a very celebrated judoka, well published. A tiny piece of this is in an article I'm finishing up now.

Cheers,

鑓

PS - Kano himself said that there were multiple versions of Ju-no-Kata in the Butokukai, but that the Kodokan only practiced one, which was sufficient.Any idea where to find the other Ju-no-Kata?

No matter how romantic the idea may sound, I do not believe that there exist or have ever existed any lost kata in judo, nor that there ever would have been an 11th kata in Kodokan judo.

There exists something called Atemi goshinjutsu, which is considered judo, and also a kata, and which consisted of 36 techniques, if I remember well. It is discussed, I believe, in Yoshizō Matsumoto's Judo no Coaching, published by Taishū Shoten, in November of 1985. I do not think I have this book here in the country, so I cannot go look it up and give you more details. I am sure it is in the Kodokan library though. This book also deals with Kyūshō (vital points on the body). I do not know the exact history off the top of my head; perhaps Sam does.

It is an exercise I have not really studied, as its status is somewhat obscure. Although considered judo because of historical reasons, I do not think it has EVER figured in the Kodokan syllabus. For that reason I object against referring to it as an "11th kata". I think that is fundamentally incorrect.

Anyhow, I still feel I have deserved the award. I shall not be satisfied with anything less than a night on the town with Miss Mitsui.

This post has been edited by Cichorei Kano: 30 January 2009 - 01:57 AM

[sam]

Cichorei Kano, on Jan 30 2009, 10:55 AM, said:

No matter how romantic the idea may sound, I do not believe that there exist or have ever existed any lost kata in judo, nor that there ever would have been an 11th kata in Kodokan judo.

There exists something called Atemi goshinjutsu, which is considered judo, and also a kata, and which consisted of 36 techniques, if I remember well. It is discussed, I believe, in Yoshizō Matsumoto's Judo no Coaching, published by Taishū Shoten, in November of 1985. I do not think I have this book here in the country, so I cannot go look it up and give you more details. I am sure it is in the Kodokan library though. This book also deals with Kyūshō (vital points on the body). I do not know the exact history off the top of my head; perhaps Sam does.

It is an exercise I have not really studied, as its status is somewhat obscure. Although considered judo because of historical reasons, I do not think it has EVER figured in the Kodokan syllabus. For that reason I object against referring to it as an "11th kata". I think that is fundamentally incorrect.

Anyhow, I still feel I have deserved the award. I shall not be satisfied with anything less than a night on the town with Miss Mitsui.

The book I know, but somewhere in a stack. I agree there won`t be any "lost" kata in Judo, and even Toride-no-Kata is never lost as we find the explanation in the 90 Years of Keishicho. Also I do not believe there can be any other Ju-no-Kata than the one appearing in JUDO in 1915 by Jigoro Kano. Talking about Atemi-no-Kata, it reminds me of my mother and father going out to the near-by school ground for exercise, carrying also bamboo sticks. I was too small to learn the curriculum but I remember seeing it at a distance - now I think Atemi, Jo and Spear (=bamboo stick).

CK, no wonder Mitsui-san was transferred to General Affairs Dept. last year!!

[NBK]

Great try!

Matsumoto Yoshizō's 'Judo no Coaching' first edition was published in 1975; at first it was part of a 'All Sports' series that seems to have been reprinted a couple of times at least. He also contributed to Mifune's 'Judo Koza' 5 volume series.

But, alas, no brass ring. Meaning you miss Miss Mitsui, mister.

It's a trick question - if you haven't heard of it, no one has. Interesting.

The '11th kata' Atemi-no-Kata is actually a different name for a portion of a well-recognized judo kata. Author, Kano Jigoro.

[NBK]

sam, on Jan 30 2009, 12:42 PM, said:

.....Talking about Atemi-no-Kata, it reminds me of my mother and father going out to the near-by school ground for exercise, carrying also bamboo sticks. I was too small to learn the curriculum but I remember seeing it at a distance - now I think Atemi, Jo and Spear (=bamboo stick).

CK, no wonder Mitsui-san was transferred to General Affairs Dept. last year!!

Sam sensei, were you a child during WWII?

It sounds like they were practicing　竹槍 takeyari bamboo spear which was taught from 1942 or so by the same instructors that taught 銃剣道　jukendo, rifle bayonet fighting. Japanese schoolboys had to take jukendo from 1937 or so.

I just finished an article on the history of jukendo, and had several discussions with the All Japan Jukendo Federation, and we've compared references and resources. I dug up a couple of old refs that even they hadn't seen, included a couple on 竹槍.

Late in the war there were insufficient wooden rifles to teach bayonet fighting, so the training shifted to 竹槍. My mother-in-law, who grew up in Manchuria, still remembers the basic thrusts she was taught as a young schoolgirl. The plan was that jukendo would be the ultimate 国民武道 and that the populace would resist any invasion to the last man, woman, or child.

Mitsui san can run but she can't hide!

[Cichorei Kano]

NBK, on Jan 30 2009, 02:11 PM, said:

Great try!

Matsumoto Yoshizō's 'Judo no Coaching' first edition was published in 1975; at first it was part of a 'All Sports' series that seems to have been reprinted a couple of times at least. He also contributed to Mifune's 'Judo Koza' 5 volume series.

But, alas, no brass ring. Meaning you miss Miss Mitsui, mister.

It's a trick question - if you haven't heard of it, no one has. Interesting.

The '11th kata' Atemi-no-Kata is actually a different name for a portion of a well-recognized judo kata. Author, Kano Jigoro.

Your answer does not make sense. Of course, people sometimes refer to Sei-ryoku zenyo kokumin taiiku as atemi-kata. Your response here deviates from your original question. You were clearly talking about an 'additional' kata since you referred to it as the 11th kata, so to suggest that the name refers to one we already have, is per definition contrary to it possibly being able to be the 11th kata.

I can't see how you can consider my question wrong; it is not wrong. It seems to be different from what you wanted to hear, but that is not the same.

In fact, some people even have used the name atemi-no-kata to indicate kime-no-kata, but that has never been an official name for kime-no-kata, only a 'description', to separate it from the randori-no-kata, and the ju-no-kata. Such a separation was prominent in the days of the old Butokukai particularly the times before people were really familiar with judo.

However, this cannot possibly be the answer to your question since in that case, it is not a separate kata, but only a different name of a kata that already figures in the previous 10. For that reason, also shinken shobu-no-kata cannot be reasonably termed the 11th kata, as it is just another name for kime-no-kata.

Thus although there are atemi in Sei-ryoku zenyo, that kata has never really been considered a kata of atemi since it was considered a kata of physical education. As I explained, kime-no-kata was, but the way you formulated that stinks. I will have the 最高裁判所 subpoena you and will not rest before Miss Mitsui is rolled into my room for uchi-komi.

[NBK]

I suspect you're more upset about no newaza w/ Mitsui san than my trick question. If you take your case to the Japanese Supreme Court as threatened, we will both be in walkers and diapers before the decision, and certainly of no use to Miss Mitsui, who will be a great grandmother by then.

I first came across this in an obscure, very nationalistic budo publication during WWII. The author of the article was 石黒 敬七 Ishiguro Keishichi, who I guess was a lot more famous in Europe than in the US. An interesting character, NHK journalist, etc. I couldn't figure out what he was on about until I studied the pictures of massed schoolboys in shorts, punching the air and makiwara. Of course, it is, as you say, the striking, solo exercises from Sei-ryoku Zen'yo Kokumin Taiiku. But practiced against makiwara, too.

There are also elements of this in some of the old Japanese Imperial military martial arts and physical education manuals where judo is the base art but atemi and throws and disarms against armed opponents figure prominently. There's no mention of 空手道 but of 柔道。　Only postwar does the Self Defense Force incorporate karate techniques in its hand-to-hand curriculum.

But, while I can't cite offhand where I recently read Kano shihan's writing that there are various Ju-no-Kata versions taught outside the Kodokan, he wrote that. I assume at least some originated in the Butokukai.

Any idea about those? I don't have a clue.