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Ju no Kata - A Kodokan Textbook Keiko Fukuda Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Lily-White 

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 06:09 AM

Just wanted to let anyone know that this book is selling on ebay for around $3.00. I dont know if it's a good book or not, but just wanted to share the knowledge for any who are interested:

http://cgi.ebay.com/...%3A3%7C294%3A50
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#2 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 06:45 AM

View PostLily-White, on Jan 6 2009, 03:09 PM, said:

Just wanted to let anyone know that this book is selling on ebay for around $3.00. I dont know if it's a good book or not, but just wanted to share the knowledge for any who are interested:

http://cgi.ebay.com/...%3A3%7C294%3A50


Yes, Lily-White, it is a good book, that will be useful to most judoists from novice to very advanced, although her first book (which was still hardback, sewn, and had glossy pictures) really was much better. It's unfortunately a bit more expensive. :manoyes:
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#3 User is offline   wdax 

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 07:59 AM

It´s a "must have" if you are really interessted in studying ju-no-kata!
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#4 User is offline   Mas 

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 09:04 AM

I see this book quite often, and in comparison there are few NNK books here in the US, which is strange considering that NNK is the more widely practiced between the two.

Though I do not see myself practicing Ju-no-kata (for a myriad of reasons, however not for lack of want) would this book benefit an intermediate Judoist?

This post has been edited by Mas: 06 January 2009 - 09:09 AM

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#5 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 10:34 AM

View PostMas, on Jan 6 2009, 06:04 PM, said:

I see this book quite often, and in comparison there are few NNK books here in the US, which is strange considering that NNK is the more widely practiced between the two.

Though I do not see myself practicing Ju-no-kata (for a myriad of reasons, however not for lack of want) would this book benefit an intermediate Judoist?


The reason is that Keiko Fukuda happens to be resident in the US and that her specialty has always been ju-no-kata. I do not think that there exists any other country, except perhaps Australia (Pat Harrington) where judo kata has has such a strong influence of the Kodokan joshi bu. This has advantages, but also disadvantages, many which American competitors are now suffering in international kata competitions outside the US.

In my view everyone can benefit from ju-no-kata and I would have benefitted from this book if I would have had it as an intermediate judoist. However, I do not think I am Joe Sixpack, so I feel I cannot talk for others. I think that the descriptions of Keiko Fukuda are pearls. They remind me of the school teacher English of Kano himself, and they have an almost naive elegance, that is not naive, but that reflects a purity and simplicity leave no doubt that Keiko Fukuda and ju-no-kata have become one, even though she can no longer practically perform it. :manoyes:
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
"I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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#6 User is offline   NBK 

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 11:44 AM

View PostMas, on Jan 6 2009, 06:04 PM, said:

I see this book quite often, and in comparison there are few NNK books here in the US, which is strange considering that NNK is the more widely practiced between the two.

Though I do not see myself practicing Ju-no-kata (for a myriad of reasons, however not for lack of want) would this book benefit an intermediate Judoist?
Breaking with 106 yrs of tradition almost unhampered by progress, the Kodokan plans to publish its first English language NNK instructional manual sometime later this year; they have recently published a new NNK DVD with an English narrative that is good. The initial DVD was given out at the IJF meeting in Paris in November.

The pair will eventually be linked as a set, probably sold through the Kodokan bookstore and website.

I think many folks will find it worthwhile.

Eventually there should be a JNK English instruction manual, too.


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#7 User is offline   sam 

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 01:05 PM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Jan 6 2009, 07:34 PM, said:

... This has advantages, but also disadvantages, many which American competitors are now suffering in international kata competitions outside the US.


CK
Just out of curiosity, I like to ascertain what difference there is among the three sources e.g. Jigoro Kano`s description - Keiko Fukuda - Kodokan Manual. Would that be selling at the Amazon?
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#8 User is offline   wdax 

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 03:11 PM

View Postsam, on Jan 6 2009, 02:05 PM, said:

CK
Just out of curiosity, I like to ascertain what difference there is among the three sources e.g. Jigoro Kano`s description - Keiko Fukuda - Kodokan Manual. Would that be selling at the Amazon?

Hello Sam-sensei,

I have almost two years of investigation behind me. I cannot read the Kodokan manual, but I can write down, where the very few differences beetween Fukuda-senseis book and the to the best of my knowledge most recent "version" of ju-no-kata are.
# 1 tsuki-dashi --> no difference, but Fukuda-sensei insists that shoulders touch while turning
# 2 kata-oshi --> Fukuda: toris left and ukes right little toe stand in line (not the whole foot) toris knees should be slighlty bent (instead of straight) while stepping backwards
# 3 ryo-te-dori --> no difference
# 4 kata-mawashi --> Fukuda allows two variations of turning, starting either with the left foot backward-turning (linke normal) or with the right foot forward-turning
# 5 ago-oshi --> Fukuda: tori should not push ukes hand upward before turning, but go down and bend his knees

# 6 kiri-oroshi --> no difference
# 7 kata mawashi --> the move of tori into the final position is left, right and a little step left again (not usual) toris left foot is not in the middle beetween ukes feet, it´s 1/3 to 2/3
# 8 nanamae uchi --> Fukuda: tori is not perpendicular but a bit behind uke before lifting
# 9 kata-te-dori ---> no difference
#10 kata-te age ----> no difference (but Fukuda-sensei writes, that tori and uke start stepping with the right foot forward

# 11 obi tori --> no difference
# 12 mune-oshi ---> no difference
# 13 tsuki age --> no difference
# 14 uchi oroshi --> no difference
# 15 ryogan tsuki ---> no difference

So the differences are very minor, but the pictures are often taken form different angles, so it is sometimes a bit confusing. Some of the points I mentioned are also seen in older videos, for example of Haruko Niboshi-sensei (#5, #8).

To my opinion this is all splitting hair, but you asked about it...... I´m travelling and I don´t have the book here, so I hope I didn´t make a mistake....

This post has been edited by wdax: 06 January 2009 - 08:46 PM

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#9 User is offline   Mas 

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 05:33 PM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Jan 6 2009, 02:34 AM, said:

The reason is that Keiko Fukuda happens to be resident in the US and that her specialty has always been ju-no-kata. I do not think that there exists any other country, except perhaps Australia (Pat Harrington) where judo kata has has such a strong influence of the Kodokan joshi bu. This has advantages, but also disadvantages, many which American competitors are now suffering in international kata competitions outside the US.

In my view everyone can benefit from ju-no-kata and I would have benefitted from this book if I would have had it as an intermediate judoist. However, I do not think I am Joe Sixpack, so I feel I cannot talk for others. I think that the descriptions of Keiko Fukuda are pearls. They remind me of the school teacher English of Kano himself, and they have an almost naive elegance, that is not naive, but that reflects a purity and simplicity leave no doubt that Keiko Fukuda and ju-no-kata have become one, even though she can no longer practically perform it. :manoyes:


This Joe-Sixpack appreciates the input, I will pick it up and hope that I will learn something by osmosis.
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#10 User is offline   finarashi 

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 07:27 PM

View PostMas, on Jan 6 2009, 07:33 PM, said:

This Joe-Sixpack appreciates the input, I will pick it up and hope that I will learn something by osmosis.

I am wondering about the price difference between The Demonstration of Gentleness : Ju-no-kata (Renshuden judo library) by Leggett, Trevor Pryce (1914 - 2000), London, United Kingdom, W. Foulsham & Co., 1964, 62p which sells for reasonable price €30 - €80 which is much less than for Fukuda's. In Leggett's book there is Kano himself in pictures.
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#11 User is offline   danguy 

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 08:52 PM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Jan 6 2009, 02:34 AM, said:

The reason is that Keiko Fukuda happens to be resident in the US and that her specialty has always been ju-no-kata. ... reflects a purity and simplicity leave no doubt that Keiko Fukuda and ju-no-kata have become one, even though she can no longer practically perform it. :manoyes:


Nor, IMHO, at this point in her Judo Career, need she.

View PostMas, on Jan 6 2009, 09:33 AM, said:

This Joe-Sixpack appreciates the input, I will pick it up and hope that I will learn something by osmosis.


Having the sense to own the book shows your willingness to learn Judo.

If you value your Judo knowledge, great; it will help with that.

If you value Judo history, it will help with that.

If you value an understanding of women in Judo, it will help with that, as the author is the highest ranking woman, now or so far, period.

If you are just interest in sport, competition or Olympic Judo, this book will help. It was Fukuda, sensei, with her partner, who were "asked" and did perform JNK at the 1964 Olympics.

This post has been edited by danguy: 06 January 2009 - 08:54 PM

If I am doing "win," sloppy and sissy is fine; if I am doing Judo, beautiful is my rule and goal. Judo is far more important and rewarding than "win."

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#12 User is offline   Jihef 

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 09:11 AM

View PostMas, on Jan 6 2009, 06:33 PM, said:

This Joe-Sixpack appreciates the input, I will pick it up and hope that I will learn something by osmosis.

*
:lol: :manoyes: :manoyes:
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#13 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 10:50 AM

View Postsam, on Jan 6 2009, 10:05 PM, said:

CK
Just out of curiosity, I like to ascertain what difference there is among the three sources e.g. Jigoro Kano`s description - Keiko Fukuda - Kodokan Manual. Would that be selling at the Amazon?


Sam,

I am not sure if you mean technical differences or not. Essentially, Fukuda's jū-no-kata is how it was done at the joshi-bu when she left Japan, and I would call it a 1955 version. Kanō-shihan's description is limited as is usual in Japanese kata description. It is far more Westerners who always want to know if a hand or a foot has to be like this, and who rather than understanding the intention and essence, then stare themselves blind on that detail and consider everything different as wrong, or as a 'change'.

There are errors in the new Fukuda book. One has to understand that it is no longer Fukuda herself who performs everything but pupils who are good but not as good as she. I will give two differences between Fukuda and Kanō. One of the reasons of differences in the US is not just Fukuda's tradition, but misunderstandings between some of her students sometimes as well as Saito Eiko who is responsible for kata in the US and Fukuda. In other words, it happens that Saito Eiko will claim that Fukuda does it this or that way or teaches it this or that way, when in fact that is not true. When you ask Fukuda she will often say something quite different from some of her students and something quite enlightening actually. In the US, we have gotten quite used to the fact that if you are clueless about something, then you simply say "Fukuda says that" or "Fukuda does" and you'll get away with it without anyone actually verifying if Fukuda truly said that or did that. Usually she never did. <_<

In ryōte-dori does the American style jū-no-kata not withdraw the left foot first. Nihoshi and Kōdōkan do.

Another difference. At the end of ryō-kata oshi (second technique, second series), the American style and Fukuda style go stand on the tip of their toes. The Kōdōkan, and Umezu and Sameshima consider that wrong.

At the beginning of obi-tori (first technique, third series), American style jū-no-kata insists that the fingers are bent to the extent that there is a round opening in between thumb and index, and that the reason for that supposedly woul be that uke would be grabbing the supposed swords of uke. This is an explanation sometimes given for the attacks in Koshiki-no-kata’s Ryoku-hi and Mizu-guruma (techniques 2 & 3), although really it only applies to one of the variations of the attacks of Hiki-otoshi (technique 6).

No such stipulation exists in Japan, and after I had presented this explanation to Abe Ichirō (in charge of jū-no-kata) and Umezu Katsuko, they both laughed at it. There is indeed nowhere any reference by Kanō-shihan about such supposed grabbing of swords in jū-no-kata, and as far as I am concerned it is one of the many creative fantasies produced by the mind of others. One question that a logically thinking person might ask is … why call it Obi-tori instead of Daitō-dori. These exercises do actually assume one wears a belt just like in Koshiki-no-kata there is actually a thick belt on top of the yoroi. Anyhow, this is another difference between the Kōdōkan version and the US which is attributed to Fukuda (although incorrect).

There are some other differences that though not prescribed are often done differently. In the US, many tori will stare to heaven for one reason or another when they lift uke like in Naname-uchi. Why ? I have no idea. They really look like the expression you find on the face of an angel on baroque or classicist paintings of Christianity in Europe. Very, very strange. <_<
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
"I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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#14 User is offline   kastow 

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Posted 12 July 2009 - 04:31 PM

Hello,

this is my first post in this forum, so for the beginning I am introducing myself: I am from germany (so please ignore my simple English und orthographic mistakes), practicing jûdô since 1988 and holder of second dan. This forum was recommended to me by the user wdax.

On to my first question: which final nage-waza are realy used against katate-dori, obi-tori und ryôgan-tsuki in jû-no-kata? I found two reasonable possibilities. In "Kôdôkan Jûdô" (german edition of the year 2007) it is said all three attacks are taken over by ô-goshi in the end while the Kôdôkan-textbook "Jû-no-kata" writen by Keiko Fukuda finishes the same causes by uki-goshi.

Which is the right solution and what lead to the discribed difference?

This post has been edited by kastow: 12 July 2009 - 04:47 PM

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#15 User is offline   sam 

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Posted 17 July 2009 - 01:24 AM

View Postkastow, on Jul 13 2009, 01:31 AM, said:

Hello,

this is my first post in this forum, so for the beginning I am introducing myself: I am from germany (so please ignore my simple English und orthographic mistakes), practicing jûdô since 1988 and holder of second dan. This forum was recommended to me by the user wdax.

On to my first question: which final nage-waza are realy used against katate-dori, obi-tori und ryôgan-tsuki in jû-no-kata? I found two reasonable possibilities. In "Kôdôkan Jûdô" (german edition of the year 2007) it is said all three attacks are taken over by ô-goshi in the end while the Kôdôkan-textbook "Jû-no-kata" writen by Keiko Fukuda finishes the same causes by uki-goshi.

Which is the right solution and what lead to the discribed difference?


In all three case, current Kodokan booklets explain "without moving both feet, control by left Uki Goshi (however to allow Uke to lift up the legs high, enter in O-Goshi)". It`s Uki-Goshi but replaced by O-Goshi to enable Tori to hold Uke on the hips. This is explained by Jigoro Kano (which is rather rare) "Essentially in Uki Goshi one will slightly bend the body just before the throw but basically twist the body. Here one does more bending than twisting, the reason is in Ju-no-Kata Tori should not actually throw. In Uki Goshi, Tori has to twist the body to throw, but this way Tori cannot hold Uke for a while on the hips." If the difference between Uki Goshi and O-Goshi is known, Kano`s explanation is clear. After all he called Ju-no-Kata a kata of gymnastics.
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