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Kime-no-kata: Notice anything special ? Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 05:01 AM

This was a performance on the recent World Cup Kata in Paris in the kime-no-kata series: http://www.ffjudo.co...a%20-%20LAN.wmv

I was curious if any of you notice anything special, and how you would value the performance ? :mellow:
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#2 User is offline   sam 

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 11:55 AM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Nov 28 2008, 02:01 PM, said:

This was a performance on the recent World Cup Kata in Paris in the kime-no-kata series: http://www.ffjudo.co...a%20-%20LAN.wmv

I was curious if any of you notice anything special, and how you would value the performance ? :mellow:


Any reason why you have taken out Ushiro Dori!?
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#3 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 07:49 AM

View Postsam, on Nov 28 2008, 08:55 PM, said:

Any reason why you have taken out Ushiro Dori!?


Finally, someone did notice ! :manoyes:

'I' did not take out ushiro-dori. Yes, believe it or not, they forgot a technique ! They skipped ushiro-dori. Those who regularly are at the Kodokan may remember Giuseppe, who is a very good guy. When the uke got up, he did not realize until instead of walking around tori, the uke made a 180° turn to go get the knife. Giuseppe realized, but there is nothing he could have done, except for shouting out. Instead they tori decided to continue, and uke still did not realize. That was probably the best choice. One could hope that the jury would not see, but unfortunately they have a list with the techniques in front of them, so that was no realistic option. Too bad for these two devoted judoka.

This post has been edited by Cichorei Kano: 30 November 2008 - 07:50 AM

"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
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#4 User is offline   heikojr 

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 12:39 PM

At this competition the penalty for forgetting a technique: the teams total score (for the entire kata) is cut in half!

heikojr
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#5 User is offline   tis 

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 10:33 AM

View Postheikojr, on Nov 30 2008, 01:39 PM, said:

At this competition the penalty for forgetting a technique: the teams total score (for the entire kata) is cut in half!

heikojr

The global score is also zero. Forgotten technique means the end of hopes. :sad(

I would like to get comments on the following situations from the kata referees who are members of this forum:
1. Uke assumes a posture for wrong technique but realizes that he has forgotten the technique and performs the correct one. Example: After ryo-te-dori (tachi-ai) uke assumes a posture with his fists up and is about to perform tsukkake. He however realizes that he should perform sode-dori and performs it. How should be this situation evaluated? Is it a small, medium or big mistake?
2. Same situation as described in this thread but tori shouts at uke. Uke then returns and performs the correct technique. Same question: Is it a small medium or big mistake? Or is it a forgotten technique?
3. During katame-no-kata tori is about to forget ude-gatame and is about to move to toma and then perform hiza-gatame. Uke however signals by tapping his fingers on tatami that there is something wrong. Tori then performs the correct technique. How would you evaluate this situation?

Thank you for your comments.
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#6 User is offline   wdax 

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 11:50 AM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Nov 30 2008, 08:49 AM, said:

One could hope that the jury would not see, but unfortunately they have a list with the techniques in front of them, so that was no realistic option. .

This did not prevent the jury of ju-no-kata during the EC 2007 in Wuppertal NOT to realize that the russian couple forgot four(!) techniques (kiri-oroshi ryo-kata-oshi, mune-oshi and uchi-oroshi) and most of the jury did not realize this.

Finally the score of the only judge who scored all the forgotten technique (40 points each technique) with the correct amount of error-points was dropped, because of the highest/lowest-score drop-rule...... The couple ended after a 4 minute demo with a final result of something in the 180ies - the summarized score of three judges! :o

This post has been edited by wdax: 02 December 2008 - 11:51 AM

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#7 User is offline   Taigyo 

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 06:31 PM

Actually that does bring up a good point in judging kata. How important is the order to the riai of the kata? Is it that big a deal? If one partner reminds the other, or if the techniques are performed out of order some penalty is in order, but this seems less important than actually capturing the riai of the technique. If you do an exchange from a kata in a lifeless manner, and even make a few technical mistakes, you will be penalized far less than if you do the exchange brilliantly capturing the riai but out of order. Since you did it out of order I believe the brilliant execution would rate a 0 in most competitions. Of course if you forget a technique, then the score could only be 0 because you haven't done anything. However, if you follow the same train of logic as you do in assigning value to something out of order, then there should be an additional penalty on top of that.

This may not seem important, or a bit silly but it actually has a bearing on what kata is all about. That is recognizing and reacting to situation, rather than just going along to a memorized script. There is an often repeated story of a Kodokan sensei who during a demonstration of nage no kata, when faced with an attack from uke that was out of order, reacted swiftly and brilliantly to the situation that was presented rather than being shaken by the mix up. This warranted high praise because it was considered that it meant the sensei had grasped the kata so fully that he was able to perceive and act in an instant.

If you are going to have competition, and assign scores to kata you must remember that people will always strive to optimize their performance under the conditions presented to him. Thus if you set up a scoring system that rewards robotic repetition of a checklist, that is what you will get.
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#8 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 12:38 AM

View PostTaigyo, on Mar 10 2009, 03:31 AM, said:

Actually that does bring up a good point in judging kata. How important is the order to the riai of the kata? Is it that big a deal? If one partner reminds the other, or if the techniques are performed out of order some penalty is in order, but this seems less important than actually capturing the riai of the technique. If you do an exchange from a kata in a lifeless manner, and even make a few technical mistakes, you will be penalized far less than if you do the exchange brilliantly capturing the riai but out of order. Since you did it out of order I believe the brilliant execution would rate a 0 in most competitions. Of course if you forget a technique, then the score could only be 0 because you haven't done anything. However, if you follow the same train of logic as you do in assigning value to something out of order, then there should be an additional penalty on top of that.

This may not seem important, or a bit silly but it actually has a bearing on what kata is all about. That is recognizing and reacting to situation, rather than just going along to a memorized script. There is an often repeated story of a Kodokan sensei who during a demonstration of nage no kata, when faced with an attack from uke that was out of order, reacted swiftly and brilliantly to the situation that was presented rather than being shaken by the mix up. This warranted high praise because it was considered that it meant the sensei had grasped the kata so fully that he was able to perceive and act in an instant.

If you are going to have competition, and assign scores to kata you must remember that people will always strive to optimize their performance under the conditions presented to him. Thus if you set up a scoring system that rewards robotic repetition of a checklist, that is what you will get.


I think you ask a good question, even more so because the order of all kata (for examplem nage-no-kata) was not always the way it is now. At one point the order of harai-goshi and tsuri-komi-goshi was reversed.
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
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#9 User is offline   Kaji 

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 04:45 AM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Mar 11 2009, 08:38 AM, said:

I think you ask a good question, even more so because the order of all kata (for examplem nage-no-kata) was not always the way it is now. At one point the order of harai-goshi and tsuri-komi-goshi was reversed.

Does the shu-ha-ri idea come into this discussion? Say, a judoka has progressed past the shu stage in nage-no-kata. Could she change certain techniques in the kata while still adhering to the principles of nage-no-kata?

An alternative that she might do is to add techniques to the existing kata, which if I remember correctly is also what you, C.K.-sensei, has done with itsutsu-no-kata.

Then there is the question of how does one really know whether she has progressed past the shu stage, especially while not under the teaching of a sensei whom is past the shu stage.
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#10 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 05:17 AM

View PostKaji, on Mar 11 2009, 01:45 PM, said:

Does the shu-ha-ri idea come into this discussion? Say, a judoka has progressed past the shu stage in nage-no-kata. Could she change certain techniques in the kata while still adhering to the principles of nage-no-kata?

An alternative that she might do is to add techniques to the existing kata, which if I remember correctly is also what you, C.K.-sensei, has done with itsutsu-no-kata.

Then there is the question of how does one really know whether she has progressed past the shu stage, especially while not under the teaching of a sensei whom is past the shu stage.


You are trying to trick me ! :o :unsure:

No, Kano appeared very strict about his kata. Koizumi in England made the bold attempt to show Kano some 'improvements' on ju-no-kata, to which Kano shocked, spoke out: "That is a modification of ju-no-kata !" You have to understand these words in a typical polite understatement of one Japanese towards another. Translating this in contemporary English would sound something like: You, SOB, where do you get the balls to touch MY Ju-no-kata".

Also, which Ochiai-sensei, and I believe now also Daigo, say that Kano died before he had an opportunity to include Mifune's ura kata as official Kodokan kata, the true story is that Kano was not pleased at all with Mifune's kata and ... DID NOT WANT to accept them.

Changing the techniques and contents of kata does not fall within the ... "ri license" if something like that would exist.

Also, you have to be very careful here. I have never said that I finished Itsutsu-no-kata. What I said, is that I reconstructed a "performance version" of the kata completed by me. The two are entirely different.

Samale, Phillips, Cohrs and Mazzuca 'completed' the final of Bruckner's 9th symphony.

Conductor Ricardo Chailly writes about this: "I’ve studied it indeed and have spoken to Mister Samale who showed me the sketches; I have the score of the finale. I intended to perform it once but then I changed my mind. I do feel that the finale is a very interesting issue if it is played completely separately from the symphony. If it’s taken as a workshop concert I could see the point; but to try to sell it as the finale of the symphony, linked to the rest of the piece, I think is really not right. Samale showed me - the sketches are like playing cards, pages without numeration where you do not see any order and not any feeling of shape of the composition. There’s also the discrepancy of the quality of music - what can you say at the end of the Adagio? The quality of the music is so incredibly high; then you go back to a kind of sketchy, scholastic, almost rhetoric piece. It’s my idea that it should be done in the morning of an evening concert. You do a workshop of one-hour about the finale, explaining the piece, and in the evening you perform the symphony in three movements – that to me is the only possibility. I think that Mazzuca and Samale did a very good job, and I admire their belief in what they did, because they have been very honest and very scrupulous – but that does not mean that the piece should be done with the rest of the symphony.” (...)

The same would apply to "completing Itsutsu-no-kata". However, making a "Performance version of the completed kata" is something entirely different; it does not imply you finished the work, brought it at the same level as if the original composer (who likely was a genius) did, but that you accept it was never finished, and as a scholarly exercise present a visual presentation that can be performed. Since 'itsutsu' means 'five', there is a certain absurdity to referring to the 15-technique series, hence why I gave it a different name, after studying the issue for a long time, and reflecting on the philosophical and theoretical role this kata was supposed to represent in Kano's syllabus. I will not be disclosing the name here.
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
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#11 User is offline   Kaji 

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 05:50 AM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Mar 11 2009, 01:17 PM, said:

You are trying to trick me ! :o :unsure:

I would never dare to, sensei!

View PostCichorei Kano, on Mar 11 2009, 01:17 PM, said:

No, Kano appeared very strict about his kata. Koizumi in England made the bold attempt to show Kano some 'improvements' on ju-no-kata, to which Kano shocked, spoke out: "That is a modification of ju-no-kata !" You have to understand these words in a typical polite understatement of one Japanese towards another. Translating this in contemporary English would sound something like: You, SOB, where do you get the balls to touch MY Ju-no-kata".

Also, which Ochiai-sensei, and I believe now also Daigo, say that Kano died before he had an opportunity to include Mifune's ura kata as official Kodokan kata, the true story is that Kano was not pleased at all with Mifune's kata and ... DID NOT WANT to accept them.

Changing the techniques and contents of kata does not fall within the ... "ri license" if something like that would exist.

Also, you have to be very careful here. I have never said that I finished Itsutsu-no-kata. What I said, is that I reconstructed a "performance version" of the kata completed by me. The two are entirely different.

Samale, Phillips, Cohrs and Mazzuca 'completed' the final of Bruckner's 9th symphony.

Conductor Ricardo Chailly writes about this: "I’ve studied it indeed and have spoken to Mister Samale who showed me the sketches; I have the score of the finale. I intended to perform it once but then I changed my mind. I do feel that the finale is a very interesting issue if it is played completely separately from the symphony. If it’s taken as a workshop concert I could see the point; but to try to sell it as the finale of the symphony, linked to the rest of the piece, I think is really not right. Samale showed me - the sketches are like playing cards, pages without numeration where you do not see any order and not any feeling of shape of the composition. There’s also the discrepancy of the quality of music - what can you say at the end of the Adagio? The quality of the music is so incredibly high; then you go back to a kind of sketchy, scholastic, almost rhetoric piece. It’s my idea that it should be done in the morning of an evening concert. You do a workshop of one-hour about the finale, explaining the piece, and in the evening you perform the symphony in three movements – that to me is the only possibility. I think that Mazzuca and Samale did a very good job, and I admire their belief in what they did, because they have been very honest and very scrupulous – but that does not mean that the piece should be done with the rest of the symphony.” (...)

The same would apply to "completing Itsutsu-no-kata". However, making a "Performance version of the completed kata" is something entirely different; it does not imply you finished the work, brought it at the same level as if the original composer (who likely was a genius) did, but that you accept it was never finished, and as a scholarly exercise present a visual presentation that can be performed. Since 'itsutsu' means 'five', there is a certain absurdity to referring to the 15-technique series, hence why I gave it a different name, after studying the issue for a long time, and reflecting on the philosophical and theoretical role this kata was supposed to represent in Kano's syllabus. I will not be disclosing the name here.

Point taken. I should have read your wording more carefully and written my sentences also with care.

If I've understood this correctly, if a person has achieved a sufficiently deep understanding in a kata or some aspect of Judo, he may derive a "performance version" or an exercise from it, but not amending or completing the original, established kata.

Similarly, a judoka may come up with new Judo activities, as long as the exercise conforms to the principles of Judo, and of course with the assumption that the judoka has sufficient skill and understanding in Judo. The "hikomi-no-kata" and what was posted in another section "ukemi-no-kata" would have been useful exercises in Judo were they presented as "hey guys, I came up with an idea - let's practise our techniques in this sequence", instead of a formal kata to be placed in the same category as the official Kodokan kata. Am I correct?
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#12 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 06:50 AM

View PostKaji, on Mar 11 2009, 02:50 PM, said:

I would never dare to, sensei!
Point taken. I should have read your wording more carefully and written my sentences also with care.

If I've understood this correctly, if a person has achieved a sufficiently deep understanding in a kata or some aspect of Judo, he may derive a "performance version" or an exercise from it, but not amending or completing the original, established kata.

Similarly, a judoka may come up with new Judo activities, as long as the exercise conforms to the principles of Judo, and of course with the assumption that the judoka has sufficient skill and understanding in Judo. The "hikomi-no-kata" and what was posted in another section "ukemi-no-kata" would have been useful exercises in Judo were they presented as "hey guys, I came up with an idea - let's practise our techniques in this sequence", instead of a formal kata to be placed in the same category as the official Kodokan kata. Am I correct?


The first part is correct, the second part is not.

I do not at all advocate that people should be creating new kata. The word 'people' is also a bad term; 'people' should never attempt to do something like that. Mifune was not 'people'. I have no reason to create an extra kata even if I would have the knowledge (which I don't). The itsutsu case is a very special case, just like Schubert's 8th symphony, or his Requiem piano sonata (which one is it, is that D840), or Mahler's 10th symphony, or Liszt's 3rd piano concerto are unfinished. We do no longer have the luxury of such great living composers, so the closes we can come is that something that already exists to some extent but is unfinished, would become finished. If the itsutsu problem did not exist, I would never even have dared to come up with the idea to create a kata; well, I still haven't. I have not 'created', I have done research and attempted to complete, using my scholarly insights.

These thingies you are referring to are ugly miscreations. The names are given by people who do not even speak Japanese. So they take a popular judo word and put the words 'no-kata' behind it thinking it will make sense. It does not make sense.

Even Japanese conceived formal series outside what Kano himself determined to be kata, usually did not get the name kata:

Even his Sei-ryoku zenyo kokumin taiiku, is not called 'kata'

Goshinjutsu is not called 'kata', and neither is Joshi goshinho or renkoho.

Even Mifune's creations were not originally called kata, and do not appear under the name kata in his Canon book, but as "Nage-no-ura-waza-kenkyu".

Terms such as "hikomi-no-kata" are absurd; to start with, the word should be 'Hikkomi', no 'Hikomi'.

Most of the reasons for which kata were created do no longer exist, which does not mean that there is no longer a reason for the kata of judo to exist, but ... no longer a reason to create additional kata.
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
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#13 User is offline   Kaji 

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 08:24 AM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Mar 11 2009, 02:50 PM, said:

The first part is correct, the second part is not.

I do not at all advocate that people should be creating new kata. The word 'people' is also a bad term; 'people' should never attempt to do something like that. Mifune was not 'people'. I have no reason to create an extra kata even if I would have the knowledge (which I don't). The itsutsu case is a very special case, just like Schubert's 8th symphony, or his Requiem piano sonata (which one is it, is that D840), or Mahler's 10th symphony, or Liszt's 3rd piano concerto are unfinished. We do no longer have the luxury of such great living composers, so the closes we can come is that something that already exists to some extent but is unfinished, would become finished. If the itsutsu problem did not exist, I would never even have dared to come up with the idea to create a kata; well, I still haven't. I have not 'created', I have done research and attempted to complete, using my scholarly insights.

These thingies you are referring to are ugly miscreations. The names are given by people who do not even speak Japanese. So they take a popular judo word and put the words 'no-kata' behind it thinking it will make sense. It does not make sense.

Even Japanese conceived formal series outside what Kano himself determined to be kata, usually did not get the name kata:

Even his Sei-ryoku zenyo kokumin taiiku, is not called 'kata'

Goshinjutsu is not called 'kata', and neither is Joshi goshinho or renkoho.

Even Mifune's creations were not originally called kata, and do not appear under the name kata in his Canon book, but as "Nage-no-ura-waza-kenkyu".

Terms such as "hikomi-no-kata" are absurd; to start with, the word should be 'Hikkomi', no 'Hikomi'.

Most of the reasons for which kata were created do no longer exist, which does not mean that there is no longer a reason for the kata of judo to exist, but ... no longer a reason to create additional kata.

Oh, I totally agreed with you. I did not think those attempts of (mis)creation were appropriate.

What I am asking is that whether one can come up with new exercising in practising Judo, assuming the person has the required skill and knowledge. (I am not implying the (mis)creators of those "hikkomi-" and "ukemi-no-kata" have or not have the required skill and knowledge.)

I can think of an example like this. "I am going to be your uke and throw a right hook punch at you. You as tori please use the stuff you learned from kime-no-kata and goshinjutsu to react with some technique while adhering to Judo principles. Let's continue this exercise for other techniques, e.g. round kick, knee kick, elbow... No, we won't call this anything near a Kodokan Judo kata, but it should be a useful exercise. Hey, if this turns out well, we might write down the techniques and have our dojo practise it later."

Is this alright? Would it be a good thing?
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#14 User is online   finarashi 

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 08:24 AM

IMHO gokyo and kata define what is Kodokan Judo. So saying that one has created new Kodokan Judo kata, then to me one is saying that he/she has changed the definition of what is Kodokan Judo.

One can argue that lifting weights is part of Judo and one can (and many have) published specific programs on how weights are to be lifted. But we can all agree that this kind of activity is not what defines Kodokan Judo. At least to me one can understand the kata of Judo similar to the laws of physics which define what physics is. New kata would irrevocably change the way we think about Kodokan Judo.
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#15 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 08:45 AM

View PostKaji, on Mar 11 2009, 05:24 PM, said:

Oh, I totally agreed with you. I did not think those attempts of (mis)creation were appropriate.

What I am asking is that whether one can come up with new exercising in practising Judo, assuming the person has the required skill and knowledge. (I am not implying the (mis)creators of those "hikkomi-" and "ukemi-no-kata" have or not have the required skill and knowledge.)

I can think of an example like this. "I am going to be your uke and throw a right hook punch at you. You as tori please use the stuff you learned from kime-no-kata and goshinjutsu to react with some technique while adhering to Judo principles. Let's continue this exercise for other techniques, e.g. round kick, knee kick, elbow... No, we won't call this anything near a Kodokan Judo kata, but it should be a useful exercise. Hey, if this turns out well, we might write down the techniques and have our dojo practise it later."

Is this alright? Would it be a good thing?


But those are simply basic kihon. The term kihon in the West today is chiefly known from karate, but does exist in judo. Many pre-1960 Japanese judo books use it.

I would not say that the prohibition against any new kata is absolute, but it is pretty close. I Daigo does not feel it necessary, and if he feels about himself that he is not up to it, then this should be a strong signal to most mortals to stay away from it. Very, very little regarding the 'ri' of judo has ever come out of the West, in particular 'ri' that has not been widely explored by Japanese.

Gleeson tried, but Gleeson was more eager to come up with anything just to come up with something irrespective if that made sense or had merit. Leggett certain had deep insights into the 'ri' of judo, but suprisingly one of the few original 'ri' contributions about judo came from an entirely unexpected side: Yves Klein. Klein very seriously explored the art concept of judo, not just martial art, but art next to painting and sculpture and dance. He tried to explore it through Japanese media but was not taken seriously in the West probably because of judo federal politics. There are some rather original thoughts and approaches in his work. Unlike Gleeson, Klein never claims to have it all figured out, but exhibits a fresh sense of wondering. Very little has been written about the aesthetics of judo in Japan. I bet that if Klein would have lived longer (he died at age of only 34 !) that he would have continued to develop that and we might have ended up with some very serious contributions to aspects of judo hitherto very little explored.
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
"I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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