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Jerky Sensei in My Dojo! what do i do? what would you do? Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   elvisdoeskarate 

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 08:11 PM

Hello everyone. I am fairly new to Judo, i am 23 years old. I did wrestling exclusively in high school, for about three years. i was very interested in judo then but never took it for whatever reason. Anyway, years later now i am taking judo, i try to keep my wrestling experience to the side because this is judo, but i do use moves time to time because a lot of the moves are somewhat the same, double-legs,single-legs,firemans(kata guruma) etc

anyway, last class i decided was the last straw! let me explain. we have about four sensei's in the class. our main sensei, who is japanese and a 6th degree black belt. then three first degree black belts, one is a girl, and two are white dudes. but one of them has been causing me some trouble since i first began.

the first time i ever took him on, was strictly a ground grappling practice. we do this drill(im sure you guys know) where you sit back to back then you start, and you have to take the opponent to his back and pin. We went at it 4 times, twice we drawed, and twice i pinned him. ever since this occassion i suspect him to have a little grudge against me, because i didnt let him beat me, and i beat him twice. and im only a white belt. im not sure if he knew of my prior wrestling experience or not..

the next incident was next week! we were working on a o-soto-makikomi combination. i was practicing it with my partner and i was like "this move seems like you would hit them in the face a lot with your elbow or your hand or whatever, shooting it in real quick you know?" so we asked the nearest sensei, which was the dude. he then said its no foul or whatever if you hit them in the face accidentaly. then proceeded to demonstrate on me! he grabbed my gi and gave me a little punch in the chin and so on. it was KINDA annoying, i wasnt sure if it was him being lame or not.

then! finally. at the last class i was at. i had to randori him. he described it as "10 minutes of light randori" so i was like ok fine. we randori'd for a while and he was landing some good throws, nothing hard. so i decided to try a low single leg sambo type takedown. the one where you hook their leg, kind of like, ouchi-gari. whatever leg is out, you hook it with your attacking leg and kneel to close the hook and push forward to take them down. its pretty simple and effective. so i tried it out, and i couldnt get the hook in hard enough so he tomoe-naged me. i didnt fall completely over, i kinda fell to my side. i considered it a takedown in my mind so i was like "ok he took me down, new try!" but! instead he just helped me get up. so im like "ok he is helping me get up" but right when i was almost up, not completely mind you. he osoto-gari'd me VERY hard. I fell backwards hard on the back of my head, and my eyes even started watering. i was so flabbergasted i didnt know what to say really. But randori was over then anyway.

so my question is.. what do you guys make of this? is this guy pissed at me? and.. what should i do about this?

thank you for your time!
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#2 User is offline   Steve Leadbeater 

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 08:28 PM

I think this BB you refer to has some serious problems if he is getting annoyed at being thrown by a beginner, I suggest you speak to your coach and advise him of this blokes onanistic attitude.
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#3 User is offline   Judoka Domy 

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 08:31 PM

At first sight it looks like a grudge, but I have heard of sensei that "test" students. Maybe he has a low impresson of you, in that case you have to earn his respect. Of course this is a process that takes some time, if he still acts like that after you work hard I think he might have a grudge on you or he's just lame.
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#4 User is offline   Ranma 

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 08:43 PM

View PostJudoka Domy, on Nov 8 2008, 12:31 PM, said:

At first sight it looks like a grudge, but I have heard of sensei that "test" students. Maybe he has a low impresson of you, in that case you have to earn his respect. Of course this is a process that takes some time, if he still acts like that after you work hard I think he might have a grudge on you or he's just lame.


but this guy is a white dude :huh:
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#5 User is offline   stacey 

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 08:52 PM

View Postncy_czn, on Nov 8 2008, 02:43 PM, said:

but this guy is a white dude :huh:

race has nothing to do with it.
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#6 User is offline   Judolady 

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 08:55 PM

View Postelvisdoeskarate, on Nov 8 2008, 04:11 PM, said:

then three first degree black belts, one is a girl, and two are white dudes. but one of them has been causing me some trouble since i first began.


View Postelvisdoeskarate, on Nov 8 2008, 04:11 PM, said:

the first time i ever took him on,
We went at it 4 times, twice we drawed, and twice i pinned him. ever since this occassion i suspect him to have a little grudge against me, because i didnt let him beat me, and i beat him twice. and im only a white belt.


Hi, elvis,

I am going to play devil's advocate here. While it is possible that this instructor is a "jerk," there are also several red flags in your post.

You refer to the black belts as a "girl" and "dudes." Not respectful, IMO. You say you "went at it" and "beat" him. The fact is, this was PRACTICE not CONTEST. You didn't "beat" anyone.

I work with a lot of beginniners, including guys in their teens and twenties. There is the possibility that this BB was going easy on you, giving you chances to try moves, etc. and that you (perhaps unknowingly) were puffing yourself up, or were doing things that were unorthodox and/or unnecessarily rough because of your inexperience, while he was trying to control the exchange safely. We don't know what really happened because we weren't there and we are only hearing your side of the story.

In the exchange you describe here:

View Postelvisdoeskarate, on Nov 8 2008, 04:11 PM, said:

he was landing some good throws, nothing hard. so i decided to try a low single leg sambo type takedown. the one where you hook their leg, kind of like, ouchi-gari. whatever leg is out, you hook it with your attacking leg and kneel to close the hook and push forward to take them down. its pretty simple and effective. so i tried it out, and i couldnt get the hook in hard enough so he tomoe-naged me.
he osoto-gari'd me VERY hard.
are you very, VERY sure that you did not pull a cheap shot, albeit unintentionally?

My suggestion to you would be to calm down in practice, and remember that it is practice. While you may want to work with other people in randori, you can probably learn from this instructor, too.

Good luck in your training,
JL
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#7 User is offline   Aduren 

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 10:27 PM

I agree with Judo lady, i have dealt with many older beginners with wrestling backgrounds and they seem to hear me but rarely listen to me. It is the roughness that comes from inexperience that causes people to get injured.

I myself have collegiate wrestling background but you train for hours so not to hurt yourself or someone else throwing, pick ups and takedowns are hard and people tend to use them only when they are tired increasing the risk of an injury.

My best recommendation is that you talk to that instructor about all of your feelings, if he is truly an instructor he will understand and help you more.

Do not feel you have to win every time.


Hope this helps.
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#8 User is offline   bythesea 

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Posted 09 November 2008 - 12:45 AM

View PostAduren, on Nov 8 2008, 02:27 PM, said:

I agree with Judo lady, i have dealt with many older beginners with wrestling backgrounds and they seem to hear me but rarely listen to me. It is the roughness that comes from inexperience that causes people to get injured.


this has been my experience as well so far. stiff, aggressive. great for shiai, or a wrestling meet, lousy for RANDORI with training PARTNERS.
Kuchiwaza -- my tokuiwaza.
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#9 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 09 November 2008 - 12:51 AM

View PostJudolady, on Nov 9 2008, 05:55 AM, said:

Hi, elvis,

I am going to play devil's advocate here. While it is possible that this instructor is a "jerk," there are also several red flags in your post.

You refer to the black belts as a "girl" and "dudes." Not respectful, IMO. You say you "went at it" and "beat" him. The fact is, this was PRACTICE not CONTEST. You didn't "beat" anyone.

I work with a lot of beginniners, including guys in their teens and twenties. There is the possibility that this BB was going easy on you, giving you chances to try moves, etc. and that you (perhaps unknowingly) were puffing yourself up, or were doing things that were unorthodox and/or unnecessarily rough because of your inexperience, while he was trying to control the exchange safely. We don't know what really happened because we weren't there and we are only hearing your side of the story.

In the exchange you describe here:
are you very, VERY sure that you did not pull a cheap shot, albeit unintentionally?

My suggestion to you would be to calm down in practice, and remember that it is practice. While you may want to work with other people in randori, you can probably learn from this instructor, too.

Good luck in your training,
JL


Very astute indeed ... -_-
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#10 User is offline   stacey 

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Posted 09 November 2008 - 03:09 AM

View PostJudolady, on Nov 8 2008, 02:55 PM, said:

Hi, elvis,

I am going to play devil's advocate here. While it is possible that this instructor is a "jerk," there are also several red flags in your post.

You refer to the black belts as a "girl" and "dudes." Not respectful, IMO. You say you "went at it" and "beat" him. The fact is, this was PRACTICE not CONTEST. You didn't "beat" anyone.

I work with a lot of beginniners, including guys in their teens and twenties. There is the possibility that this BB was going easy on you, giving you chances to try moves, etc. and that you (perhaps unknowingly) were puffing yourself up, or were doing things that were unorthodox and/or unnecessarily rough because of your inexperience, while he was trying to control the exchange safely. We don't know what really happened because we weren't there and we are only hearing your side of the story.

In the exchange you describe here:
are you very, VERY sure that you did not pull a cheap shot, albeit unintentionally?

My suggestion to you would be to calm down in practice, and remember that it is practice. While you may want to work with other people in randori, you can probably learn from this instructor, too.

Good luck in your training,
JL

:manoyes: :manoyes:
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Please note, the above provided information does not constitute legal advice but is written for entertainment purposes only. The author is not responsible should you pursue any of the above, and by reading the above, you agree to hold the author, the forum, and any and all other entity including but not limited to God harmless for any damage, monetary or otherwise, caused by your pursuit. Yadda Yadda....
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#11 User is offline   shiran 

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Posted 09 November 2008 - 06:15 AM

At least he didn't break cartilage in your neck.
Force you to stay out of Judo for 2 years!
That jerk one day I'll get revenge!!!!! -_-

Sounds like he has an attitude problem.
I'd suck it up for now. What doesn't kill you(or break your bones or cartilage) makes you stronger.
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#12 User is offline   annmaria 

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Posted 09 November 2008 - 08:08 AM

I am sorry but I have to agree with most of the others, sort of.

It does sound like this guy is a bit of a jerk. Certainly throwing someone when helping him up is rude. However, you have kind of a different attitude than I would like to see. Let me give a few examples.

You refer to the three other senseis as "a girl and two white dudes". How old is this girl? I am 50 and if somebody referred to me as a girl sensei I would think it was rude and disrespectful. No, I wouldn't hit him in the face, but I could see how that kind of attitude would be annoying.

Your whole story about how you beat him, fought to a draw, etc. is an attitude that is very likely to irritate judo instructors. Let me try to explain why....

I have been in judo 38 years. I am old and small. If I work out with someone half my age, my intention is to give him or her someone to practice with. Usually, I join in practice because we have an odd number and I don't want a person training to miss out on a round. I will often attack from my weakest positions in matwork because it gives the other person more of a chance and it lets me work on my weaker points. Nothing in my attitude is about "beating" students. When I do start working out and someone young enough to be my child or grandchild does try to "beat me", it is irritating. After 38 years of judo, 14 of them as a competitor, a lot of things on me are broken. If a young, strong person tried a technique that almost injured me or just plain hurt, I think I would get more than a little irritated.

I guess I am echoing what others said, that you don't "win" randori in judo any more than you get an A in field trip in school. On the other hand, if this IS the issue, I think your sensei should have had the maturity and sense to explain his point of view to you instead of trying to beat some sense into you. You are correct, he is not in the right, either.
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#13 User is offline   discus747 

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Posted 09 November 2008 - 04:36 PM

First of all always protect yourself. I tell all stdents get up on your own so this can not happen but this is randori in class and mutual respect is needed here. A blackbelt should not take advantage of a white belt in this manner. I am sure he is overstepping his teacher status and I would prefer you speak to top instructer to clear the air so to speak.I will myself take a fall at times to allow students to throw me and let it appear that they have really done a great job. It is of no shame in practice tobe thrown by a loer rank but many do not see it as a teaching tool.
Doug Sherman :P






:mellow: :mellow:

View Postelvisdoeskarate, on Nov 8 2008, 04:11 PM, said:

Hello everyone. I am fairly new to Judo, i am 23 years old. I did wrestling exclusively in high school, for about three years. i was very interested in judo then but never took it for whatever reason. Anyway, years later now i am taking judo, i try to keep my wrestling experience to the side because this is judo, but i do use moves time to time because a lot of the moves are somewhat the same, double-legs,single-legs,firemans(kata guruma) etc

anyway, last class i decided was the last straw! let me explain. we have about four sensei's in the class. our main sensei, who is japanese and a 6th degree black belt. then three first degree black belts, one is a girl, and two are white dudes. but one of them has been causing me some trouble since i first began.

the first time i ever took him on, was strictly a ground grappling practice. we do this drill(im sure you guys know) where you sit back to back then you start, and you have to take the opponent to his back and pin. We went at it 4 times, twice we drawed, and twice i pinned him. ever since this occassion i suspect him to have a little grudge against me, because i didnt let him beat me, and i beat him twice. and im only a white belt. im not sure if he knew of my prior wrestling experience or not..

the next incident was next week! we were working on a o-soto-makikomi combination. i was practicing it with my partner and i was like "this move seems like you would hit them in the face a lot with your elbow or your hand or whatever, shooting it in real quick you know?" so we asked the nearest sensei, which was the dude. he then said its no foul or whatever if you hit them in the face accidentaly. then proceeded to demonstrate on me! he grabbed my gi and gave me a little punch in the chin and so on. it was KINDA annoying, i wasnt sure if it was him being lame or not.

then! finally. at the last class i was at. i had to randori him. he described it as "10 minutes of light randori" so i was like ok fine. we randori'd for a while and he was landing some good throws, nothing hard. so i decided to try a low single leg sambo type takedown. the one where you hook their leg, kind of like, ouchi-gari. whatever leg is out, you hook it with your attacking leg and kneel to close the hook and push forward to take them down. its pretty simple and effective. so i tried it out, and i couldnt get the hook in hard enough so he tomoe-naged me. i didnt fall completely over, i kinda fell to my side. i considered it a takedown in my mind so i was like "ok he took me down, new try!" but! instead he just helped me get up. so im like "ok he is helping me get up" but right when i was almost up, not completely mind you. he osoto-gari'd me VERY hard. I fell backwards hard on the back of my head, and my eyes even started watering. i was so flabbergasted i didnt know what to say really. But randori was over then anyway.

so my question is.. what do you guys make of this? is this guy pissed at me? and.. what should i do about this?

thank you for your time!

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#14 User is offline   Qmystic 

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Posted 09 November 2008 - 05:28 PM

View Postelvisdoeskarate, on Nov 8 2008, 03:11 PM, said:

Hello everyone. I am fairly new to Judo, i am 23 years old. I did wrestling exclusively in high school, for about three years. i was very interested in judo then but never took it for whatever reason. Anyway, years later now i am taking judo, i try to keep my wrestling experience to the side because this is judo, but i do use moves time to time because a lot of the moves are somewhat the same, double-legs,single-legs,firemans(kata guruma) etc

anyway, last class i decided was the last straw! let me explain. we have about four sensei's in the class. our main sensei, who is japanese and a 6th degree black belt. then three first degree black belts, one is a girl, and two are white dudes. but one of them has been causing me some trouble since i first began.

the first time i ever took him on, was strictly a ground grappling practice. we do this drill(im sure you guys know) where you sit back to back then you start, and you have to take the opponent to his back and pin. We went at it 4 times, twice we drawed, and twice i pinned him. ever since this occassion i suspect him to have a little grudge against me, because i didnt let him beat me, and i beat him twice. and im only a white belt. im not sure if he knew of my prior wrestling experience or not..

the next incident was next week! we were working on a o-soto-makikomi combination. i was practicing it with my partner and i was like "this move seems like you would hit them in the face a lot with your elbow or your hand or whatever, shooting it in real quick you know?" so we asked the nearest sensei, which was the dude. he then said its no foul or whatever if you hit them in the face accidentaly. then proceeded to demonstrate on me! he grabbed my gi and gave me a little punch in the chin and so on. it was KINDA annoying, i wasnt sure if it was him being lame or not.

then! finally. at the last class i was at. i had to randori him. he described it as "10 minutes of light randori" so i was like ok fine. we randori'd for a while and he was landing some good throws, nothing hard. so i decided to try a low single leg sambo type takedown. the one where you hook their leg, kind of like, ouchi-gari. whatever leg is out, you hook it with your attacking leg and kneel to close the hook and push forward to take them down. its pretty simple and effective. so i tried it out, and i couldnt get the hook in hard enough so he tomoe-naged me. i didnt fall completely over, i kinda fell to my side. i considered it a takedown in my mind so i was like "ok he took me down, new try!" but! instead he just helped me get up. so im like "ok he is helping me get up" but right when i was almost up, not completely mind you. he osoto-gari'd me VERY hard. I fell backwards hard on the back of my head, and my eyes even started watering. i was so flabbergasted i didnt know what to say really. But randori was over then anyway.

so my question is.. what do you guys make of this? is this guy pissed at me? and.. what should i do about this?

thank you for your time!


Seems like you might be thinking too much about it imo. None of the above seem like a big deal really, except maybe the osoto when helping you up and now you are preparred for stuff like that.

There might usually be 1 or 2 sensei or seniors in every class that ruff you up a little bit and you just have to tuff thru it. He knows you are an experienced grappler I'm sure. It would bother me if it was the head sensei tho.

Actually, and I don't mean this in a bad way(lol) the fact that this bothers you as an experienced grappler makes me wonder if you might have a small chip on your shoulder too.

Just the way I look at it from as a former judo student myself.

This post has been edited by der commissar: 09 November 2008 - 05:35 PM

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#15 User is offline   soho11 

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Posted 09 November 2008 - 07:13 PM

JudoLady hit the nail on the head. I saw a lot of "attitude" in elvisdoeskarate's post. My suspicion is that the sensei you (der commissar) questions is trying to give him a bit of an attitude adjustment.

Yes, there were a lot of red flags including referring to a judo sensei as a "girl" and the others as "Japanese" and "white" (what was the need for this? What difference does it make what race your senseis are) and "dudes." A sensei is not a "dude."

Further, while you may think you "won," a good sensei will usually let a beginner pin him in order for the beginner to practice his pins.

Elvis, I think you need to take a long, hard look at yourself.

This post has been edited by uchimataman: 09 November 2008 - 09:22 PM

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