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Gracie Video with Kano on Cover Rate Topic: -----

#31 User is offline   golsa 

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 06:32 AM

View Postloudenvier, on Oct 31 2008, 12:48 AM, said:

Jiu-Jitsu is how it is spelled in every single Portuguese dictionary...


Oh you zany "Brasilians" and your alternative spellings. Thankfully Americans always use correct spellings, like Krispy Kreme Doughnuts.

I don't know the first thing about Brazilian trademark law, but in the states Gracie Jiu-jitsu is a trademarked name. And I'm sure the continued use of the improper spelling in the states has nothing to do with trademark and brand identity.
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#32 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 06:53 AM

View Postloudenvier, on Oct 31 2008, 02:48 PM, said:

Yes! I see this all the time... Most don't really know the real roots of their arts... Most will ask you this: "But didn't Jiu-Jitsu came before Judo?", and that sort of thing, when I try to state that Judo is the forefather of BJJ...

And Jiu-Jitsu IS the correct way to write it... I mean, if you are referring to the martial art evolved by the Gracies... Jiu-Jitsu is how it is spelled in every single Portuguese dictionary... The name of the art, Jiu-Jitsu, which the whole world but Braz(s)il call Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, should be written with 'i' before the 'u'... There's no such thing as Brazilian Ju-Jutsu... Ju-Jutsu does not exist in any Portuguese dictionary.

But if you say that a traditional japanese school of jiu-jitsu is good or bad... I guess you should write that as ju-jutsu... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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PTNippon is correct, and so is Jonesy.

The only 100% correct way to write the term is 柔術 or じゅうじゅつ. Unfortunately, most people who are not Japanese, may struggle with that. The correct romanization is: jūjutsu.

Many people, however, do not know how to put the macron on the first 'u', thus may write just 'jujutsu' or 'juujutsu'.

The term 'jiu'jitsu' is wrong, no doubt about it, whether it is Portuguese or French. What we often see happen then, is that people who are not Japanese linguists (I am) go look it up in a dictionary, where they find also or perhaps even solely the word 'jiu-jitsu'. They draw from that the erroneous conclusion that the term would be correct. Why is this conclusion erroneous ?

We typically use a dictionary to verify how a word needs to be written. Usually this works out well as dictionaries are 'pretty' reliable for that; however, dictionaries really are not meant for that purpose, although it is what most people use them for. Unlike what people think, a dictionary does NOT prescribe how a word needs to be used; a dictionary has the purpose of registering ... how a word IS being used, regardless of whether that use is correct or not. That is a major difference. Grammar and Correct Usage books prescribe how a word needs to be used and written, NOT a dictionary.

There are many, many errors in dictionaries, particularly involving foreign loan words. The correct transcription, that is romanization should be 'jūjutsu', and that is what also the Portuguese dictionary SHOULD contain.

To take it a step further, even the Kenkyusha, one of the Japanese's leading dictionaries contains the word 'jiu-jitsu'. Why is that ? Wouldn't a Japanese dictionary know how the word is properly used ? Of course they do, that is why if you look up 'jūjutsu' it will be in there as proper way of writing the word, but ... the dictionary also contains the wrong word 'jiu-jitsu' because it IS being used despite being wrong, and that is what a dictionary needs to do: register the use of words irrespective of whether they are right or wrong.

For a native speaker of Japanese like PTNippon, insisting like you do that 'jiu-jitsu' would be correct is absurd, because he immediately knows that what you are saying is in fact 柔実 or 柔日 or 柔實, all three which have an absurd meaning. He knows that it is something completely different from 柔術 (jūjutsu).

Moreover, think of this for a second. Can you understand how absurd it is for him who is native speaker of Japanese having to argue about what is correct in Japanese with people who not only are not native speakers or Japanese, but also have no academic degree in Japanese or no native fluency in Japanese.

While you may think the same applies to you regarding Portuguese, the situation is no identical. PTNippon-sensei is nor arguing about Portuguese, but about the original Japanese word, which is what the English, German, French and Portuguese dictionaries are really referring to, the Japanese words as unfortunately also incorrectly in use by other languages. In German they even had weird transcriptions such as "Dschiu-Dschitsu". If you find Portuguese books written by Portuguese or Brazilian Japanese linguists or professors of Japanese, you'll see that they will be aware of those errors in Portuguese or other language dictionaries and write it correctly. Sorry, but that is how it is.

I explained before on this forum that the error goes back to when the word was introduced in the English language, presumably on April 29th of 1892 by Takashima Shidachi from the Yōshin-ryu jūjutsu, who became secretary to the Japanese Bank in London. That day he gave the first ever recorded dissemination about jūjutsu in a Western country. He held a lecture at the occasion of the first meeting of the English Japan Society. It was also published, and the publication misspelled jūjutsu as jiu-jitsu, for understandable reasons, as the man was not fluent in English. I believe that E.J. Harrison, who was a journalist, may have been present at that meeting, and he became fascinated by the topic and went to Japan in 1897. Because that source introduced something that people were not familiar with there did not exist any way for cross-referencing, and people adopted the term assuming that was how it was written. This is how the error occurred, and this quite innocent feat in the end became responsible for infecting most other languages with the erroneous term.

Even Kano, unsure at the time, initially in printed work used 'ju-jitsu' and even 'jiudo'. If you think about it, it is completely nonsensical to write 'judo' but 'jiu-jitsu', because their first syllable should be identical; so how can someone write 'ju' in one word but 'jiu' in the other ? That does not make sense.

Although the Takashima Shidachi event in 1892 is the first officially recorded event and publication, some etymological dictionaries even suggest that the word originally entered the English language in 1875 and correctly. However, the term then was simply not understood and did not become widespread until Shidachi's lecture that used the wrong spelling.

I cannot for the life of me find the 1892 article in my office or on my computer (I know I have it in a file which I do not have present here), and perhaps Joe Svinth might know if it is electronically available online anywhere.

This post has been edited by Cichorei Kano: 31 October 2008 - 06:21 PM

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#33 User is offline   redcarded 

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 08:35 AM

I would venture a guess that BJJ people feel what they practice to be generally Brazilian enough and distant enough from its Japanese origins to have evolved into a different creature, one that could be named in their own language and no longer needing to look to Japan for linguistic correction. I mean, if I saw a sign in Rio saying 'Brazilian Jujutsu' I would think that it is some form of gendai jujutsu, including stand up and possibly weapons, if I saw a sign saying 'Brazilian Jiujitsu' I would think Gracies et al.
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#34 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 08:52 AM

View Postredcarded, on Oct 31 2008, 05:35 PM, said:

I would venture a guess that BJJ people feel what they practice to be generally Brazilian enough and distant enough from its Japanese origins to have evolved into a different creature, one that could be named in their own language and no longer needing to look to Japan for linguistic correction. I mean, if I saw a sign in Rio saying 'Brazilian Jujutsu' I would think that it is some form of gendai jujutsu, including stand up and possibly weapons, if I saw a sign saying 'Brazilian Jiujitsu' I would think Gracies et al.


An accompanying picture of Kyra might help you remember though ! -_-

Which reminds me ... why on earth use a picture of Jigoro Kano if you have ... Kyra Gracie ?! :lol:
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#35 User is offline   redcarded 

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 09:16 AM

Hahaha....Yes, much more Brasilian
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#36 User is offline   Zits 

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 06:08 PM

So there were initial spellings that are now considered wrong (my comment about earlier romanizations). Some of these persisted and became rather entrenched in some areas.
So, basically like everything else with languages.

While the argument that it makes no sense for the spelling of the first syllable of either to be different is certainly compelling, that sort of mess is pretty common.

Languages aren't typically rigid entities.
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#37 User is offline   loudenvier 

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 07:28 PM

No matter the argument you use CK, the correct spelling IS Jiu-Jitsu!

But wait, I'm not trolling... I never troll.. I'm only stating the Jiu-Jitsu IS the portuguese word for jujutsu (I don't have the accent here to write it correctly though, sorry)... Just that...

No matter if it came from a wrong romanization of the Japanese word. That's the way it was written down here in Brasil (with S :-) ).. So, if you are writing in Portuguese, you should write:

"O Jiu-Jitsu brasileiro iniciou-se com o ensino do Judo pelo judoca do Kodakan chamado Mitsuyo Maeda, que foi passado a Carlos Gracie........"

And this has nothing to do with copyright law... Jiu-Jitsu is how it's spelled in Brazil, it's the official spelling... You will not find it in the dictionaries alone, you'll find it in the Encyclopaedia.
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#38 User is offline   Kung-Fu Joe 

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 07:36 PM

View PostZits, on Oct 31 2008, 01:08 PM, said:

So there were initial spellings that are now considered wrong (my comment about earlier romanizations). Some of these persisted and became rather entrenched in some areas.
So, basically like everything else with languages.

While the argument that it makes no sense for the spelling of the first syllable of either to be different is certainly compelling, that sort of mess is pretty common.

Languages aren't typically rigid entities.
I always find it completely ironic when people quibble over the spelling of "jiu-jitsu," but have no problem using the word "Japan." At least "jiu-jitsu" is phonetically similar to "jujutsu." "Japan" and "Nippon" are pretty ridiculously different.

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#39 User is offline   JiuJitsuJon 

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 10:13 PM

and beisbol is how you say baseball in Spanish. Doesn't mean it's wrong, it's just a Spanish spelling of the word.
Oh Gracie Jiu Jitsu, best Jiu Jitsu in the world, all ooooother Jiu Jitsu, is done by lit-tle girls...

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#40 User is offline   Zits 

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 10:19 PM

View Postloudenvier, on Oct 31 2008, 12:28 PM, said:

No matter if it came from a wrong romanization of the Japanese word. That's the way it was written down here in Brasil


This seems pretty much to be it for me.
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#41 User is offline   redcarded 

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 10:20 PM

Lets not get started on the Japanese adaption of English words...... You'd probably need some new sofuto on your pasocon to help translate!
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#42 User is offline   dave coles 

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 11:26 PM

haemoglobin or hemoglobin

Brazil or Brasil

Awstralia or Australia

as stated earlier, different countries spell some words differently

In Brazil it is spelt Jiu Jitsu, that is the correct spelling in that, and many other, countries.
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#43 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 01 November 2008 - 12:09 AM

View Postloudenvier, on Nov 1 2008, 04:28 AM, said:

No matter the argument you use CK, the correct spelling IS Jiu-Jitsu! But wait, I'm not trolling... I never troll.. I'm only stating the Jiu-Jitsu IS the portuguese word for jujutsu (I don't have the accent here to write it correctly though, sorry)... Just that...No matter if it came from a wrong romanization of the Japanese word. That's the way it was written down here in Brasil (with S :-) ).. So, if you are writing in Portuguese, you should write:"O Jiu-Jitsu brasileiro iniciou-se com o ensino do Judo pelo judoca do Kodakan chamado Mitsuyo Maeda, que foi passado a Carlos Gracie........"And this has nothing to do with copyright law... Jiu-Jitsu is how it's spelled in Brazil, it's the official spelling... You will not find it in the dictionaries alone, you'll find it in the Encyclopaedia.


Nope it is not. And the Departamento de Letras Orientais e Eslavas of the Faculdade de Letras of the Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro does not think so either, obviously for good reason. -_-

Encylopaedia have even less credibility on that aspect, as their purpose is not even to 'register' the use, lest to 'prescribe' the use.

Like it is not a particularly good idea as non-physician to explain medical articles and texts, it isn't a particularly good idea as a non-linguist to explain linguistics, even if it is your native language.

View Postdave coles, on Nov 1 2008, 08:26 AM, said:

haemoglobin or hemoglobinBrazil or BrasilAwstralia or Australiaas stated earlier, different countries spell some words differentlyIn Brazil it is spelt Jiu Jitsu, that is the correct spelling in that, and many other, countries.


What nonsense. Are you a linguist ? I am. You are mixing apples and oranges. The examples you quote have nothing to do as they are originally in Latin script. Japanese is an ideographic language and does not have 'letters', just like Chinese does not have letters. The correct spelling of the word in Latin script is 'jūjutsu', period. For languages that use Latin script, that is how the word is properly transcribed using 'letters'. The word 'jitsu' as I have explained ad nauseam, is an entirely different word. The word 'jitsu' means 'truth' or 'faith' or 'confidence'. The word 'jutsu' on the other hand, means 'art' which is what the character 術 means.

I therefore regret to say, sorry no 'jiu-jitsu', 'dojos', 'senseis' and other idiocies on the menu today. -_-

Please, don't write about things you are not qualified in.

This post has been edited by Cichorei Kano: 01 November 2008 - 12:22 AM

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#44 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 01 November 2008 - 12:31 AM

View PostKung-Fu Joe, on Nov 1 2008, 04:36 AM, said:

I always find it completely ironic when people quibble over the spelling of "jiu-jitsu," but have no problem using the word "Japan." At least "jiu-jitsu" is phonetically similar to "jujutsu." "Japan" and "Nippon" are pretty ridiculously different.

--Joe


Again, apples and oranges. The word 'Japan' is an English word, namely the name for the country Japan, just like Germany is the word in English for Deutschland, and Switzerland for Schweiz. The word 'Nippon' or 'Nihon' is the Japanese word for Nippon and thus used by the Japanese, just like Deutschland is used by the Germans and Schweiz by the Swiss. The word 'jiu-jitsu' is not a word does not have anything to do with it, it is a plain mistake, an error, a nonsensical term; it does not mean anything out of the absurd. This is what the word 'jiu-jitsu' is: 慈雨実 It literally means "Welcome rain sincerity".

The word we intend to communicate is 柔術. It only has a single proper transcription: jūjutsu. The macron is sometimes dropped for practical reasons, although technically it is incorrect without the macron.

This has nothing to do whatsoever about "quibbling over the spelling of "jiu-jitsu,'". The word jiu-jitsu is spelled jiu-jitsu but is an absurd word that has nothing to do with martial art; the martial art is spelled jūjutsu in Latin script and nothing else.
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#45 User is offline   dave coles 

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Posted 01 November 2008 - 12:44 AM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Nov 1 2008, 12:09 AM, said:

Nope it is not. And the credibility of the Departamento de Letras Orientais e Eslavas of the Faculdade de Letras of the Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro does not think so either, obviously for good reason. -_- Encylopaedia have even less credibility on that aspect, as their purpose is not even to 'register' the use, lest to 'prescribe' the use.What nonsense. Are you a linguist ? I am. You are mixing apples and oranges. The examples you quote have nothing to do as they are originally in Latin script. Japanese is an ideographic language and does not have 'letters', just like Chinese does not have letters. The correct spelling of the word in Latin script is 'jūjutsu', period. Please, don't write about things you are not qualified in.



"The examples you quote have nothing to do as they are originally in Latin script."

Sorry I do not understand this sentence.


FACT haemoglobin, hemoglobin are spelt differently in different countries

Brazil, Brasil ditto

Awstralia, Australia ditto

FACT different countries spell some words differently

FACT In Brazil it is spelt Jiu Jitsu

FACT that is the correct spelling in that, and many other, countries.



"Please, don't write about things you are not qualified in."

Do not try to patronise me. A suggestion of that nature coming from someone who regularly posts on the subject of BJJ is very amusing and rather hypocritical.

This post has been edited by dave coles: 01 November 2008 - 08:29 AM

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