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Itsutsu no kata debate Rate Topic: -----

#76 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 01 October 2008 - 11:21 PM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Oct 1 2008, 09:39 PM, said:

Since you asked ...

You may wish to address the start of the movement which is quite difficult, and of which the description seems missing.

Something else that needs to be addressed and which not a single book or video addresses, are the consequences of difference in height. Since I am in an evil mood today, I will ask the question: Who knows ?

What if the difference in height is such that it is impossible to hold the arm in 90degree position and be on uke's chest ? How should it be resolved ? <_<


I agree with you, no books ever deal with height or weight etc. I have NEVER had the priviledge of practicing any kata with a partner equal size and weight :rolleyes: This has been a very strong point for me in the end as it truly taught me to adapt to a lot of different situations in randori.

It is the achievement that we need to look at and not only how it is achieved. The extedned Right arm of uke may be placed across ukes body from shoulder to hip in required as long as the hand of uke is palm down, and the back nor front of the hand is used to push. I pray you are not going to suggest what I have seen in the past and that is tori may bend his Right arm and drop his elbow to his Right hip thus lowering his Right forearm? The falsehood of doing such a thing woul be to have the energy from the hara exit from the elbow at the bend and not flow down the arm giving the arm purpose from shoulder to to the tip of the fingers.

To address one of Sir Harrys point, the correct time to drop onto the knee and make the final action in the destruction of uke IS the point of this action. I cannot tell you, it is only felt and for me to say you should drop after one step or two steps or three etc or when uke is brerathing out or in, or when uke head is back.........ALL these come to to play and the most I ever achieve is a theatre action where uke does me the favor of going down and 'playing his part'. This is wrong and pointless but I may one day catch an uke?

In the real world of self defence would uke take a big step back or tai sabaki, of course he would and not tori would ever run past ann uke placing his back to an uke, suicide. This is not the point of this kata but is the point of the Kime and goshinjutsu kata. The INK is an elevated kata that combines shu-ha,ri and this is the goal of the INK. Can it be achieved, I guess so but it is not always a good thing to get what we want, perhaps the real lessons in this kata are about learning to strive for perfection in movement, shu, and then developiong our ha and finaly the ri?

Back to CKSensei. I thought I had explained the first few seconds of the action? :huh:

Uke stands well in front of tori. Distance will depend on several things mainly the size of the pair. Tori will stand collecting his thoughts and placing them away making his mind concentrate without trying to concentrate on the action ahead. Tori bends to his left corner taking his arms back to his left side. This is a very interesting part of the action as it represents two actions in one, the death of the previous wave and the birth of a new one. Tori breaths out as his arms sway backward representing the void from that previous unseen wave. Tori will then take both his arms forward and taking steps toward uke will start to trot toward uke raising both those arms collecting as he runs all the energy possible to break on the shore ahead. Toris arm should stretch and hands should tingle with the stretching and controlled inward breathing.
Tori, as he passes uke, will have his arms raised out and up toward the corners of the dojo. I have been taught to actualy take my arms up to touch the ceiling, I dont use this manner but take my arms out to my side at shoulder height and point them at corner level so it is a compromise between touching the ceiling in a verticle sense and the other way of keeping the arms out to the side in a parallel fashion.

I have seen the head of tori bow down to the floor at the initial take of and birth of tha action, I was taught and practice to take my haed back with my arms but keep my haed up and not allow my posture to break. Having a rubber body would help ans this is the action of water and a wave, powerful yet soft, hard yet supple, fast but controling, controling but smooth. A step with the left foot should be taken back at the initial start off. I have seen a step forward with the right though.

How am I doing? I wanted to complete the fifth action this evening but it is now 12 12 AM here.

Let me have a drink and I may have a bash at the last action. Phew.

Mike

This post has been edited by Hanon: 01 October 2008 - 11:22 PM

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#77 User is offline   Inferus 

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 12:10 AM

With Hanon-sensei's permission, I would like to throw your text into a free publication. I will devote my time to laying it out properly, and applying nice graphical styles for you. I want to make sure that the information gets popularised so that this kata does not get lost to time!
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#78 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 12:34 AM

Final action.

After the completion of the previous action uke and tori walk to the edge of the shiaijo to prepare for the last action.
As tori reaches that point he takes a step forward on his right foot spreading his arms out and dropping his COG by a few inches, turning around to his Left and directly facing his uke they rush toward each other. Just as the collision is about to happen tori will drop like a stone right in front of uke into the posture of yoko wakare and without touching uke 'throw' uke, using ukes mind, across his body. :huh: :o

Sounds crazy eh. :manoyes: Cleaver stuff in this one.

Ever had your arms full and tried to walk down a flight of stairs with your vison impaired? You think there are 10 steps only to find there are 9, what happens you nearly fall on your chops over a step that IS NOT THERE. How is this done?
It is the mind that is throw and not the physicall body. Uke is expecting to collied with his tori who without warning makes that void, as in the non missing step, and uke will lose his own balance and sail over what he finds 'not there'. A void.

Timing is the key of this action and like all the previous actions no one can truly teach this action. It is a feeling, a sense.
Tori needs to make the circumstances where his uke will take a fall. This sounds simple enough, we can all do this with ogoshi. In this last action we need to achieve the same result without even touching the uke, we need to throw uke by using HIS mind. At what point should tori drop. I have seen a pair nearly touch and this is difficult . Tori needs to drop just as uke makes a step forward but has not yet placed the said foot on the floor and is this in mid balance. When tori drops his uke will become mentally unbalanced which will leed to his physical balance being destroyed.
The droping action of tori also adds direction to uke who will see this drop and look toward it thus truly lossing control and sailing over tori.

There is no jump or false chugeri in this action. This is just as it is, true Ju that leads to the downfal of an uke even without kumi. A physical action on the part of tori that throws his uke.


Well this brings to an end for me the brief and incomplete description of these five actions. I have tried to give examples that we can all understand even though transferring those principles into the kata will be a lifes work.
Can those who thought that this kata was simple now identify that what the eye sees is not always reality.
I can see why so many of my peers think of this kata as a game and of no value but just some theatre act. Today it is as it is the height of ones judo to achieve such a kata performance as the INK. The best we can hope for is some mastery in the initial physical sense, the greater harmony and blending of two judoka to demonstrate the real actions are near impossible, though possible.
In practing this kata have some patience with ones self. Think how many 10th, 9th and 8th dans there have been in the history of judo, so few and this kata is in their realm of expertise.
There is no snobbery in this kata it is 'simply' five principles that are placed into a frame of physical and emotional action reaction.
I think it very wise to learn several of the other kata before starting on this one don't you? :P :lol: Perhaps I should just speak for myself? :blink: :unsure:

Mike. PHEW AND DOUBLE PHEW!


View PostCichorei Kano, on Oct 2 2008, 01:16 AM, said:

This is precisely one of the problems I have highlighted before, and why I make references to my book. Much of the information and interventions I make here are material from my book, and thus copyrighted. It is up to Hanon-sensei to decide what he allows or not, but I formally object against the use of any additions or corrections, or explicitations I have authored to be used, even if they were only in response of Hanon-sensei or anybody else's comments.I will be deleting all my interventions in the Itsutsu-no-kata threads.


WHAT? What did I do now? :huh:

What is written on the forum stays on the forum. This is my understanding?
Oh dear what now?

Mike :sad(

This post has been edited by Hanon: 02 October 2008 - 12:39 AM

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#79 User is offline   Mdrnsamurai 

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 12:39 AM

Sensei Mike, Thank You for your assistance and your guidance.

Train Hard, Stay Safe,
Good Luck
"There is no boundary in the way of flexibility, and the heart shall see no enemy." Mifune, Kyuzo 10th Dan

"It's about heart above all." Saito, Hitoshi 7th Dan

"The technique and mind are just like the front and back of one’s hand, meaning they are very closely related." Yamashita, Yoshiaki 10th Dan

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#80 User is offline   Sir Harry Flashman 

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 12:56 AM

It has been asked, since this somebody has said that all their inputs on this topic will be removed:
"Something else that needs to be addressed and which not a single book or video addresses, are the consequences of difference in height. Since I am in an evil mood today, I will ask the question: Who knows ?

What if the difference in height is such that it is impossible to hold the arm in 90degree position and be on uke's chest ? How should it be resolved?"


That's a fabulous question. I have no bloody idea.
When Hanon says that tori's arm can run downward, even to uke's hip, he is in effect harking back to the principle in technique 1. This is going to be a force against uke's front; constant acceleration will be uke's undoing.
If you go with my idea about breaking uke's posture, 'kinking' his lower back, if you will, then you, like I am, would be tempted to say, run your arm upward so that you cross his sternum or the gap between his collarbones. That would be the contact point, which would provide the best leverage, hitting uke high in order to kink him low. (Whether your arm is up or down should be immaterial from the standpoint that you're in one piece and still striking uke on the same plane.)

Maybe the kinking him in the back is a bit much. Maybe the constant acceleration, the linking of two 'whole' bodies is the name of the game. I didn't think of the kinking in technique 1. Maybe it's there. Maybe it's not there in either 1 or 4. Oh, Hell; this is going to become infinite.

I'm going down in flames: hit him high.

I'll have to get on the mat and test them all over again.

EDIT: I just added this response and saw your 'final action' above. I think that's the best of your five descriptions. "Throw him with your mind.": Now I have to go back YET AGAIN and think about the other four with that in mind. Well done!

This post has been edited by Sir Harry Flashman: 02 October 2008 - 01:02 AM

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#81 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 01:08 AM

View PostSir Harry Flashman, on Oct 2 2008, 01:56 AM, said:

It has been asked, since this somebody has said that all their inputs on this topic will be removed:
"Something else that needs to be addressed and which not a single book or video addresses, are the consequences of difference in height. Since I am in an evil mood today, I will ask the question: Who knows ?

What if the difference in height is such that it is impossible to hold the arm in 90degree position and be on uke's chest ? How should it be resolved?"


That's a fabulous question. I have no bloody idea.
When Hanon says that tori's arm can run downward, even to uke's hip, he is in effect harking back to the principle in technique 1. This is going to be a force against uke's front; constant acceleration will be uke's undoing.
If you go with my idea about breaking uke's posture, 'kinking' his lower back, if you will, then you, like I am, would be tempted to say, run your arm upward so that you cross his sternum or the gap between his collarbones. That would be the contact point, which would provide the best leverage, hitting uke high in order to kink him low. (Whether your arm is up or down should be immaterial from the standpoint that you're in one piece and still striking uke on the same plane.)

Maybe the kinking him in the back is a bit much. Maybe the constant acceleration, the linking of two 'whole' bodies is the name of the game. I didn't think of the kinking in technique 1. Maybe it's there. Maybe it's not there in either 1 or 4. Oh, Hell; this is going to become infinite.

I'm going down in flames: hit him high.

I'll have to get on the mat and test them all over again.


I think we have some confusion here and this is due to my poor explanation. I need to add to this.

Tori cannot have his arm stretched across ukes hip region? This would only be possible if tori was 2' tall and uke was a giant. If this was the case tori should HIGHER his arm NOT lower it.

There comes a point though where the power in an arm is lost. The further away the hand is taken from the hara the weaker the hand-arm becomes. To this end body mechanics should apply where possible. Circumstances will dictate to a degree what height is what and how the action takes place. In judo we have to accept and work with all sizes. Most kata these days have partners of very similar body size. This is fine but variation in size does bring new education and raise some very interesting questions.
In Self defence we can't choose the size of the attacker? The use of judo principles must be adaptable to embrace all encounters?

In the case where tori is TALLER than his uke one cannot higher the Right arm as it may well pass over the haed of uke. How does one then apply the arm. The right arm of uke may be lowered and angled, yes, a change in the degree. This will be in accordance with height and mechanical principles. A taller tori could never drop his arm to the level of the hip that would mean his arm may well be verticle to the floor and have no contact with uke?

Mike

This post has been edited by Hanon: 02 October 2008 - 01:11 AM

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#82 User is offline   fredlinux 

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 02:26 AM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Oct 1 2008, 09:16 PM, said:

I will be deleting all my interventions in the Itsutsu-no-kata threads.


I always had the feeling that someday you would do something like that. I have ALL your relevant posts saved and I will SHARE with anyone that requests.

I'm truly disappointed with your behavior. You aren't a true judoka. Your selfishness is disgusting. It's all about MY Book, MY copyrights, etc.

You don't own nothing about Judo, this knowledge isn't yours. You owe all this posts to every sensei that SHARED this knowledge to you, personally or through books and papers. Your actions are a shame for the Judo and Kano legacy.

Sorry for my straightforwardness opinions, but I can't swallow this...
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#83 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 02:56 AM

View Postfredlinux, on Oct 2 2008, 11:26 AM, said:

I always had the feeling that someday you would do something like that. I have ALL your relevant posts saved and I will SHARE with anyone that requests.

I'm truly disappointed with your behavior. You aren't a true judoka. Your selfishness is disgusting. It's all about MY Book, MY copyrights, etc.

You don't own nothing about Judo, this knowledge isn't yours. You owe all this posts to every sensei that SHARED this knowledge to you, personally or through books and papers. Your actions are a shame for the Judo and Kano legacy.

Sorry for my straightforwardness opinions, but I can't swallow this...


I am truly sorry. It was not my intention to disappoint you or anyone else. I am truly sorry that you feel such is given in by my selfishness. This is not given in my selfishness. I agree with you that we owe sharing our knowledge. It is precisely because of that reason that I do everything for free, and never charge for clinics. My concern is far more potential mistakes I make. When I deliver an end product, I need to make sure everything is correct. You will see often that professors when their students or colleagues suggest publishing something that they are very strict. One of the reasons is that from the moment something gets published, academically you carry a lot of responsibility. That means also that when your student has faked data or their are other inaccuracies, you are academically responsible. Because I can only devote a limited time to what I write here, much stuff is not annotated.

Ochiai-sensei, for example, has always made it clear his materials were copyrighted and should not be distributed. People made illegal copies of his videos, which has created considerable problems with him as well as cause embarrassment at the Kodokan. This was precisely one of the reasons for a 'relative' rareness of go-no-kata. I do not see what I would be doing different from him or from Adams. In fact, there are still near 10,000 posts with from me, with what I think, is useful information, available for you and others to consult.

This has nothing to do with 'owning', and I am truly sorry if I offended you. I am at loss for understanding why you are so angry when copyright comes into place. Every judo book is copyrighted, every DVD is. I do not see most authors, like Adams instead publishing the contents of their entire collections here.

I am also at loss, why you would feel hurt or insulted when a person who writes something afterwards decides to withdraw that. I would think that an author has the right to do that. I am still available to answer questions from people, and I still do write a lot.

If you have better suggestions, please PM me with those suggestions, and I promise I will take them to heart.

However, if you believe that near 10,000 posts of cooperation reflect my selfishness, then it seems to me that this forum would be better off without me. In the interest of judo, it would be wrong of me to impose myself and my selfishness upon others. If I indeed have such a character flaw, then I think it would be more beneficial for me to work on that character flaw in privacy.
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#84 User is offline   charlie 

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 04:40 AM

CK-Sensei, please keep doing your thang. Your knowledge & insight is so very much appreciated by the vast, vast majority of readers here, I am certain. You certainly do have the right to share it however and whenever you feel appropriate.
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#85 User is offline   wdax 

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 07:52 AM

Copyright is in todays society one of the most controversial discussed subjects. So thanks to CK for the quick respond!

"fredlinux" shurely only wants to say, that in his widespread opinion we don´t own our knowledge exclusively, because we got the most of it somewhere. So it´s not our´s alone and we have the responsibility to share it with others, so it can grow to the best of all. If we don´t share it, knowlegde can become a factor of power and sometimes - if it´s taken from others - an economical injustice.

I think, we all more or less agree in this general statement.

But I want to decide myself, which statemants of mine are "free to quote" and which are not! CK pointed it out very well! I want to add another point. If someone provides information to the public and someone else uses it without quoting correctly HE maybe can claim copyright for him! Of course it´s a plagiat then, but how can you avoid that?

Writing a book or producing a DVD is huge work, specialy when it is not for the masses, but to high level experienced people. Nobody ever can pay for the work, not for the time spent, and maybe not for the expenses for the production. So it´s in everybodys interest, that the copyright-holders keep control over the quality of information provided.

I hope the waves go down a little.... calling CK selfish is absurd - he shares much of his knowledge, answers questions and nobody knows where to send the bottle of wine.... would a selfish man behave that way?

This post has been edited by wdax: 02 October 2008 - 07:56 AM

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#86 User is offline   finarashi 

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 08:13 AM

View Postwdax, on Oct 2 2008, 10:52 AM, said:

Copyright is in todays society one of the most controversial discussed subjects. So thanks to CK for the quick respond!

"fredlinux" shurely only wants to say, that in his widespread opinion we don´t own our knowledge exclusively, because we got the most of it somewhere. So it´s not our´s alone and we have the responsibility to share it with others, so it can grow to the best of all. If we don´t share it, knowlegde can become a factor of power and sometimes - if it´s taken from others - an economical injustice.

I think, we all more or less agree in this general statement.

But I want to decide myself, which statemants of mine are "free to quote" and which are not! CK pointed it out very well! I want to add another point. If someone provides information to the public and someone else uses it without quoting correctly HE maybe can claim copyright for him! Of course it´s a plagiat then, but how can you avoid that?

Writing a book or producing a DVD is huge work, specialy when it is not for the masses, but to high level experienced people. Nobody ever can pay for the work, not for the time spent, and maybe not for the expenses for the production. So it´s in everybodys interest, that the copyright-holders keep control over the quality of information provided.

I hope the waves go down a little.... calling CK selfish is absurd - he shares much of his knowledge, answers questions and nobody knows where to send the bottle of wine.... would a selfish man behave that way?

wdax, I don't agree with you at all. You go to university you pay. You want to learn something, you go to a seminar or buy material for learning, you pay. Sometimes you want to find out what is in a source not on your mother tongue, you must translate, that costs. You buy a newspaper, you buy a book, you buy a DVD. They are not free. Information is this world is a commodity, it has price and it is tradeable.

To claim that each of use is OBLIGED to answer on our free time questions from others and PROVIDE REPEATED answers to same questions over and over again is absurd. That is to say we are slaves to others if we know more than they do and must abandon our jobs, forget our dear wifes and kids and just sit and type and slave for those mouths that scream abuse on us for not typing fast enough?

Education is not free, information is not free. If I out of consideration, for fun, post here, then naturally that comes public domain and I can not control it anymore. But to claim that one MUST post is ridiculous. I don't have to teach judo to anybody. I only teach Judo to my students and then in a way that suits me not them.

Another problem in these kata threads has been constant demands to tell what is wrong and what is right. Aren't people supposed to work themselves to find out things. Is the only thing allowabe anymore to bring knowledge in a nice package, bowing to someone sitting and not caring one iota and say; "Please would you care to look at this!" ... and then get abusevie languahe as the package was not nice and one had to turn head to look at information. I understand that there are arrogant self centered people that say; "I want all, I want it now, I curse you because you are not quick enough for me and I don't want to work nor think to get it!"

I am extremely pleased when I get answers from many knowledgeable posters like you, wdax. But I do not consider my duty to provide for the ignorant bully. So how about you all giving thanks to ptnippon, CK, Hanon, ... (You can send them fan mail, you know :hap: )
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#87 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 02:13 PM

View PostInferus, on Oct 2 2008, 01:10 AM, said:

With Hanon-sensei's permission, I would like to throw your text into a free publication. I will devote my time to laying it out properly, and applying nice graphical styles for you. I want to make sure that the information gets popularised so that this kata does not get lost to time!


Please do nothing with the posts given to this forum, they are in the forum and not for publication in any other form.

I will explain why. Here I am amoung friends and peers. I make so many mistakes that I can't and refuse to write books etc. I can say nothing new and nothing I may write about judo has not already been printed and publised and by authorities on the subject.

I muse and waffle and brainstorm here and this is my free time to do so. It is my strongest desire to pass on the judo I have been taught and this is the media I feel comfortable in doing so. I teach seminars all over the world and don't charge for doing so. Please understand my genuine reasons for saying a resounding no to you Craig san, I am not selfish but what is written here stays here for my part and I would never agree for anything I write here to be re produced elswhere. I am in no position to author such things. Here I give explanations and food for thought, I don't write facts.

Here I have the security judosensei and his team of mods offer me, If I drop a real clanger the post may be altered or edited by me or those who know better. Once a book is published what is written in that book is there for ever and I cannot take that responsibility.

I fear this post may be misinterpreted and that will cause even more problems. Do your best to understand my point. I write again, from my part what I write here is for forum friends and peers etc and stays within this family of judoka where it is open to debate and change. Amen

Mike

This post has been edited by Hanon: 02 October 2008 - 02:58 PM

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#88 User is offline   Mitesco 

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 02:45 PM

Great attitude, Mike! :manoyes:

Nothing but selfless, modest service to judo and judoka, without pretensions.
By expressing this mentality, we can all know for sure that your kata express the real, deeper understanding of judo spirit.
Not just physical movements, but inner movements.

Those who want to learn, don't need this in a book. It's better they find your posts here, so that they can feel that you not simply made a paper or so, but a real effort, post after post. The story of a birth.

And also other posters try to contribute so much to judo here. Copyrights or not, nothing about selfishness, just another style of expressing things. Thanks to Mike, thanks to all. I've learned a lot. Again. :hap:



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#89 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 05:20 PM

View Postfredlinux, on Oct 2 2008, 03:26 AM, said:

I always had the feeling that someday you would do something like that. I have ALL your relevant posts saved and I will SHARE with anyone that requests.

I'm truly disappointed with your behavior. You aren't a true judoka. Your selfishness is disgusting. It's all about MY Book, MY copyrights, etc.

You don't own nothing about Judo, this knowledge isn't yours. You owe all this posts to every sensei that SHARED this knowledge to you, personally or through books and papers. Your actions are a shame for the Judo and Kano legacy.

Sorry for my straightforwardness opinions, but I can't swallow this...


Good afternoon Fredlilux,

How is the weather in sunny Brazil?

May I make an observation or two regarding your comments to CKSensei? I have no right to do so but I hope you will accept my concern.

I fear there is a grave misunderstanding on your part. This can happen due to language or to other things but the result is the same, confusion and discord.

CKSensei is publishing a book. All he writes in that book is copyright by the publisher and for CKSensei to write the contents of his book here would be in direct violation of the law and he could be taken to court and prosecuted. We first have to understand this.
CKSensei is in a very delcate position, he would like to write even more than he does concerning certain topics but is bound by the work he is doing and has done for his forthcoming book. In the light of this I think it silly and unwise on times for CKSensei to have risked posting anything at all here as should his publisher get wind of this it could sour relationships to say the least and end up in a court battle at worse.

I made certain comments on the INK that CKSensei wanted to correct and add to. In doing so he was helping me and you to learn. In doing this he risked a great deal by writing things he perhaps should not have. As soon as another poster mentioned that what I had written would or could be used to form some sort of booklet or whatever CKSensei saw the danger and had NO OPOTION but to remove his contribution or face serious concequences.
If you can accept this then you will see CKSensei has not only done this forum a wealth of good but has taken great risk on our behalf in doing so.

Now to MY point.

No one is entitled to my knowledge. I do not have to teach a single person. I owe no one a jot in judo. My sensei are mostly dead. Allow me to finish, judo has cost me the social part of my life. I don't drink nor smoke. I dont gamble I don't disco and I don't or do many of the average things my peers did as I grew up. I started judo as a small boy and from then at the very old age of just 16 inherited a judo dojo that I didn't want nor could I cope with it. The dojo did serve to boost my ego and self esteem and I stupidly took it on. Later in life I learned the cost of missing my youth.
From that time I have given given given. I have NEVER been paid for teaching judo and when I qualified in my profession I earned enough money to subsidies my judo and that of my dojo.

Judo has cost me, in financial terms, a small fortune. It has cost me my social life. My time has been spent at work or judo. This has been my choice and no one has made me practice judo.

My point here is the knowledge I have I paid for in hard cash and my free time. I write here freely and still, to this day teach, for free. Not only do I teach for free I teach abraod and pay my own air fare or car fare and never accept a cent for the teaching or my hotel room etc.
There is a clear cut reason for this. I have seen so many good sensei get into 'trouble' over the club funds etc that I will not touch money. Had any speculation have been writen about me it would have ended my professional career so I made an early decision along with my wife not to charge for judo and make it my spending hobby.

No one owns my judo. I do and I give it freely. When I read that there are people who think it is my duty to give my time and knowledge I would say to them then do what I had to do and PAY for it.
If I am asked to help out I do so freely. If I am told to teach........two options, one pays or doesn't get a thing from me. I must add this has never happend in my life and yours is only the second or thrid post I have ever read here suggesting that any of the posters here owe it to teach freely and our knowledge is your property.

NOT speaking for CKSensei. Should a poster make demands of me nothing would see me off here faster. To call CKSensei selfish when he has written 10,000 posts free of charge is ludicrous and shameful. I hope you will re read what has been written here and make an effort to establish a bridge with CKSensei, this just HAS to be a misunderstanding.

Well I didn't think it possible to see this sort of discussion in the kata section but. Lets sort this out in a professional manner and not turn this thread into a battle ground. Agreed my friend :manoyes:

Mike :hap:
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#90 User is offline   fredlinux 

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Posted 02 October 2008 - 06:14 PM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Oct 1 2008, 11:56 PM, said:

I am truly sorry. It was not my intention to disappoint you or anyone else. I am truly sorry that you feel such is given in by my selfishness. This is not given in my selfishness. I agree with you that we owe sharing our knowledge. It is precisely because of that reason that I do everything for free, and never charge for clinics. My concern is far more potential mistakes I make. When I deliver an end product, I need to make sure everything is correct. You will see often that professors when their students or colleagues suggest publishing something that they are very strict. One of the reasons is that from the moment something gets published, academically you carry a lot of responsibility. That means also that when your student has faked data or their are other inaccuracies, you are academically responsible. Because I can only devote a limited time to what I write here, much stuff is not annotated.


My writing English skills are very poor, but I will try to sustain my point.

Does Inferus know you real identity? If not and he uses your posts, it is up to him to check and verify. You can't take personal responsibility for errors. A post in a public forum can't be reference for any serious publication.

A more correct reason to delete your posts is just to keep this material for your book.

What is the objective of your book? What is the objective of your research? Inform Judo Community or praise yourself?

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Ochiai-sensei, for example, has always made it clear his materials were copyrighted and should not be distributed. People made illegal copies of his videos, which has created considerable problems with him as well as cause embarrassment at the Kodokan. This was precisely one of the reasons for a 'relative' rareness of go-no-kata. I do not see what I would be doing different from him or from Adams. In fact, there are still near 10,000 posts with from me, with what I think, is useful information, available for you and others to consult.


Go-no-kata has always been involved in mysterious, this is so ridiculous. Some forum members knew correct and complete information about it ages before the videos emerged. But they kept this mysterious aura. If I had this info I would rush to make it available.

I don't miss a opportunity to show Ochiai's Go-no-kata. I have shown and sent it to dozen of people and I'm truly happy with this.

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This has nothing to do with 'owning', and I am truly sorry if I offended you. I am at loss for understanding why you are so angry when copyright comes into place. Every judo book is copyrighted, every DVD is. I do not see most authors, like Adams instead publishing the contents of their entire collections here.


This is another matter. Copyright law is old, broke, flawed and silly sometimes. There is very little room for copyrights in Judo knowledge and heritage.

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I am also at loss, why you would feel hurt or insulted when a person who writes something afterwards decides to withdraw that. I would think that an author has the right to do that. I am still available to answer questions from people, and I still do write a lot.


The matter here isn't the withdraw, but the reasons for that.

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However, if you believe that near 10,000 posts of cooperation reflect my selfishness, then it seems to me that this forum would be better off without me. In the interest of judo, it would be wrong of me to impose myself and my selfishness upon others. If I indeed have such a character flaw, then I think it would be more beneficial for me to work on that character flaw in privacy.


Yes, you are a truly contributor to this forum, everyone here have learned a lot from your posts. You have too much of an attitude. You always draw a line on your posts. I loathe that and I had never sad anything about it, I kept the discomfort with me.

Delete public posts trying to prevent them to be used is a very bad behavior that I can't agree. If you don't want it, don't post.

Every action that prevent any information about Judo to be freely available makes me furious. Sorry about that, my reaction was disproportional and inadequate.

Sam is a perfect example of a truly knowledgeable Judoka. His conduct in this forum is impeccable.

Fred
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