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Itsutsu no kata debate Rate Topic: -----

#46 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 02:48 AM

View PostHanon, on Sep 29 2008, 09:35 AM, said:

:o Shocking, just shocking :o

Mean to you :huh: I saved your life! :P

Mike ;wry)


Attached Image

Attached Image

Best of regards,

Your friends,

Ungyō and Agyō.

<_<

This post has been edited by Cichorei Kano: 29 September 2008 - 02:48 AM

"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
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#47 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 10:04 AM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Sep 29 2008, 03:48 AM, said:

Attachment ungyo_33...talog_TN.jpg

Attachment agyo_33_...talog_TN.jpg

Best of regards,

Your friends,

Ungyō and Agyō.

<_<


How the hell did you obtain those photos of the mother-in-law :huh: ? She was happy there :o !

You keep well, and behave yourself. I have my eye on you young Sir! :rolleyes:

Have another hug sensei.

Mike
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#48 User is offline   Kaji 

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 10:34 AM

View PostHanon, on Sep 29 2008, 06:55 AM, said:

You joke but this is so true :blink: , I have lost the edge to re write the third action, I need to write these things when ready and to re write them leaves me cold. I can't for the life of me find the inspiration to write it all again. I will force myself to do so tomorrow.

Hanon sensei, this kind of accident happen all the time at where I work. Some of my not-so-careful teammates can lose their work in whatever ways possibly imaginable in the computer world. If recovering the work is not possible, the only option is to rewrite everything again. (Sure, they don't have a choice as they have a boss behind them with a whip, a luxury which Hanon sensei you don't enjoy.)

However, I always remind them that writing the same material the second time usually result in a better piece of work. They are having a second go at structuring the contents, presenting the material with perhaps a better logical flow, improving on the wording and also the tiny stuff like grammar and even formatting, etc. Therefore I don't think losing work in the first place is a complete loss of time and effort, that is of course if one can capitalise on it and write a better piece of work the second time round. With death comes new birth. The cycle of nature applies to many things in our life. I wouldn't dare to lecture you, but just sharing my thought and what I've learned in the very few years of my profession.

Hence, Hanon sensei, not meaning to give you any pressure (other than the pressure you've already given yourself), I would like to suggest seeing things this way. If a day ago you thought it worthwhile to write about the third technique, a day later why would your decision be different, especially since you could write a better piece of work now?

Again, no pressure here, Hanon sensei, but if you decide at the end to continue sharing with us your great depth of wisdom and knowledge, I and I'm sure a lot of the others here too will be very grateful.

REI
大智發於心,於心無所尋,成就一切義,無古亦無今。
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#49 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 02:12 PM

Action three.

Think mud on tyres! You park you car in some mud and drive of to the sound of mud hitting the inside wheel arches or your car and general sods law also sends that mud swishing down the side of the car.

The principle behind this, the third action, is centripetal and cenifugal force. To spin of a rotating object.

Uke raises from his previous action with his Left knee n the floor and Right knee raised he is not in the same posture as tori. Simultaneuosly then lean forward from the hara and start to sprea their arms out to the side at 90degrees to the body both parties then rise up and breathing in start to walk in an anticlockwise direction circling each other. This is performed untill they start to decress the circumferece of that circle and this decress brings them eventuall together facing each other. Toris Right hand and arm is below Ukes Left arm and toris Left arm is above ukes Right the rotation continues untill the veocity has been reached and the tori,acting as a vortice,will spin uke offsending his across the body of tori in a yoko wakare position.

Sounds simple enough. Here are some of the buts. Timing and knowledge of just when tori must drop and take the advantage of the action to down his partner is the key here. Speed is increased untill Uke can no longer hold that centre of tori and is redirected away from the vortice that is tori into another direction, Uke is spun off. There can be no break in the action, not even a hint or the action would cease.

The arms are used to direct the action not force it but INFLUENCE it, guide it, give it a new direction.

You will see in the video clip that Mifune sensei allows his uke to be thrown from the middle of toris legs, from inbetween the legs. We have to accept that once a person masters judo in the shu sense he surpases these things and may concentrate on the elements of ha and ri. Mifune Sensei is able to perform this action without lossing focus to the physicall but going past that and into the ri of the action. In general both legs of tori should be, for us mortals, outside of the legs of uke.

I said I was not looking forward to re writing this, I just cant find the inspiration once I have lost the original. I will do better for the forth action.

Mike

This post has been edited by Hanon: 29 September 2008 - 02:18 PM

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#50 User is offline   CSS 

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 02:29 PM

Hanon,

An enlightening read.

Please continue.

A minor technical question: - In the second action yuki attacks with a shuto - spear hand.

Do Judoka train in atemi waza?
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#51 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 02:50 PM

View PostCSS, on Sep 29 2008, 03:29 PM, said:

Hanon,

An enlightening read.

Please continue.

A minor technical question: - In the second action yuki attacks with a shuto - spear hand.

Do Judoka train in atemi waza?


Hiya,

Atemi waza is an important secion of judo just as nage waza and osae waza. Do dojo today train in atemi? Very few I am affraid as the waza cannot be used in shiai and thus are seen as extraneous.
I have weekly sessions teaching atemi waza, it brings a welcome break from other forms of training and is interesting and important.

Mike :hap:
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#52 User is offline   Sir Harry Flashman 

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 04:07 PM

Isn't there something besides the drop that that sends uke off like mud from the tire? Tori, in making the drop, or in setting it up, is decreasing his hara's distance from the center of the circle. Viewed from above, he's spiraling closer to the axis of rotation. That must be what Mifune is up to if he's throwing uke from between his legs.

A figure skater, spinning on one toe, brings her arms and her other leg closer to her body, which means closer to the axis of rotation. This conservation of momentum makes her spin more quickly. Could this be what tori is doing with a tiny step or two as he goes into the drop, gaining speed and thereby additional force to make the throw?
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#53 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 04:12 PM

View PostSir Harry Flashman, on Sep 29 2008, 05:07 PM, said:

Isn't there something besides the drop that that sends uke off like mud from the tire? Tori, in making the drop, or in setting it up, is decreasing his hara's distance from the center of the circle. Viewed from above, he's spiraling closer to the axis of rotation. That must be what Mifune is up to if he's throwing uke from between his legs.

A figure skater, spinning on one toe, brings her arms and her other leg closer to her body, which means closer to the axis of rotation. This conservation of momentum makes her spin more quickly. Could this be what tori is doing with a tiny step or two as he goes into the drop, gaining speed and thereby additional force to make the throw?


No, yes, yes and yes. Lol. The apparent simplicity of this action is what trips us up. Your definition of what happens is very nice I like it. The hara does indeed get close as you described.

Do you understand the action of a flywheel in a car engine? Once that heavy balanced wheel is started to rotate the impetus of that rotation keeps it going with little help from the axis. This principle is also present as are others I just can't yet articulate today. Brain dead again! :wacko:

Mike

This post has been edited by Hanon: 29 September 2008 - 04:17 PM

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#54 User is offline   wdax 

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 04:38 PM

View PostSir Harry Flashman, on Sep 29 2008, 06:07 PM, said:

A figure skater, spinning on one toe, brings her arms and her other leg closer to her body, which means closer to the axis of rotation. This conservation of momentum makes her spin more quickly. Could this be what tori is doing with a tiny step or two as he goes into the drop, gaining speed and thereby additional force to make the throw?


Nice thought, but not correct from point of view of physics.

If a system is rotating has no (or very little) contact to another system (the ground) the kinetic energy will be constant because it is not external influenced. If now the mass of the rotating system is brought closer to the axis the total speed of each mass-point (in m/sec) remains the same. Only the spinning in °/sec accelerates, because the distance for a complete circle is shorter.

So you can increase the spinning speed when turning for tsukuri if you bring you body mass to the axis, but you cannot gain additional force with it.
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#55 User is offline   Sir Harry Flashman 

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 05:20 PM

There has to be a reason why this works.

Could it be this: the rotating system, the judo pairing, is not free of external forces. Uke and tori are in an equilibrium of sorts (as they turn) until tori exerts the force to move toward the center of the circle. It has to be that force, tori's mass and acceleration, his change of station, that is translated into his advantage over uke. That and especially the drop are the forces introduced.

The moving toward the center might just be an issue of position. You are certainly faster; you're closer to the center of the system, and uke becomes tangential - the mud on the tire, as Hanon says.

This post has been edited by Sir Harry Flashman: 29 September 2008 - 05:23 PM

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#56 User is offline   wdax 

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 05:40 PM

View PostSir Harry Flashman, on Sep 29 2008, 07:20 PM, said:

There has to be a reason why this works.

Could it be this: the rotating system, the judo pairing, is not free of external forces. Uke and tori are in an equilibrium of sorts (as they turn) until tori exerts the force to move toward the center of the circle. It has to be that force, tori's mass and acceleration, his change of station, that is translated into his advantage over uke. That and especially the drop are the forces introduced.

The moving toward the center might just be an issue of position. You are certainly faster; you're closer to the center of the system, and uke becomes tangential - the mud on the tire, as Hanon says.

I only refered to the figure skater..... the drop of course adds some force, like every sutemi does.

But i´m not sure, if this is the point - to say the truth: I don´t believe it.

To my opinion Tori brings himself in the middle (to the axis) and rotates uke around him. So the centrifugal force only affects uke. Then by going down to yoko wakare the axis - which is the longitudinal axis of tori´s body is shifted from vertical to horizontal. This way uke is thrown to the corner of the tatami and makes a forward roll.
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#57 User is offline   Sir Harry Flashman 

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 06:14 PM

I think if we got on the mat, we'd probably agree on how it's done and how it should look.

I've just been struck by this recollection from physics class: there is no such thing as centrifugal force.
There is centripetal force, which means center seeking. If one were to fill a bucket with water and then whirl it alongside and overhead, people would typically say that centrifugal (center-fleeing) force is what's keeping the water in the bucket even when it's upside down - as if the water wants to fly up and away along a line extending from the persons arm.
The reality, however, is that the centripetal force along the person's arm is keeping the bucket drawn in 'against' the water, effectively trapping it. At any given instant, the water does not want to flee straight out. It wants to fly off at a tangent, a 90 degree angle from the line of the arm at any given instant.

Thus the idea that centrifugal force does not exist. No equal or opposite force exists to counteract centripetal force.

Another example of this would be a baseball pitcher, who releases the ball as his forearm is essentially upright. Were he to release it when his arm was pointed toward the batter, the ball would smack immediately into the ground.

In Itsutsu No' kata's technique 3, perhaps it would be most accurate to say that tori's shift and drop introduces an entirely new line of centripetal force moments before tori releases it and uke goes off at a tangent.
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#58 User is offline   wdax 

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 06:21 PM

View PostSir Harry Flashman, on Sep 29 2008, 08:14 PM, said:

I've just been struck by this recollection from physics class


I´m a teacher of physics :hap: And yes.... of course you are right :glass)
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#59 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 06:32 PM

View Postwdax, on Sep 29 2008, 07:21 PM, said:

I´m a teacher of physics :hap: And yes.... of course you are right :glass)


Well that puts my efforts into perspective then! Lol :rolleyes: I am among experts in this field. What am I doing here, HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLP. :lol:

Mike :hap:
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#60 User is offline   danguy 

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 07:17 PM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Sep 26 2008, 07:55 PM, said:

It will take me a little bit longer ... sort of awaiting if the US is soon going to increase it dozens of Olympic and World Championship medals, before I am going to accept whatever "many top 'coaches in the USA" (I did not even know there were any) believe as the gospel regarding how judo needs to be performed or studied. The way I see it "those same folks" have a lot of things they should be doing which they are not doing if they want to realize their goals such as obtaining medals. "Those same folks" are also the ones 'Swanlaking' around tiptoeing the tatami in their blue gi and baseball caps.

And as to you believing "many fine players do benefit from kata", this needs correction to "every single judoist good or bad WILL benefit from kata training".

So, you had lots of injuries, very well, sorry to hear that, and you are suggesting now that those injuries would prevent you to do any kata but not shiai ? Why have a I hard time believing that. Unless you are in a wheel chair with your legs paralyzed and half your back in arthrodesis, I do not see how you would not be able to practice any of the kata. I appreciate that some people because of knee injuries can't sit on their knees and do 'cat-a-me-no-kata', and others because of back or neck injuries cannot do fall anymore, sure, but there is a lot to do that does not include falls. Ju-no-kata and go-no-kata do not include any falls. And if one's back is truly so bad that even the least bending is impossible, then there is still Sei-ryoku zenyo kokumin taiiku.

But irrespective of that ... why would you attempt to extrapolate your own private injury history to what everyone should be doing, in particular those (I assume most people) who have not had your specific injuries ?

I am also a bit confused by your statement in respond to Inferus' comment:

Inferus: "Go ask Yamashita-sensei if he thinks kata is not for shiai. At the peak of his competitive career he was studying Nage no kata and katame no kata." (...)

You: "As was I; I started with NNK in 1970 and we met in 1979. While he beat me in shiai, he might be able to be my JNK tori." (...)

Are you saying you fought Yamashita in competition in 1979 at his top ? And you want him to be your tori ? Yamashita is an 8th dan and past Olympic and multiple world champion. Don't you think there is some difference in level and experience between the two of you ?


Ouch CK, you seem a bit harsh here.:sad1:

I repeat myself: Yes, I still do practice kata which I began in 1970. I do believe it can help all folks in Judo and it helped me. I do believe it is not given much credit/interest by those in the USA considered to be "good shiai coaches" a position to which I disagree. :glass)

As to interfus' comment, I only added while Yamashita practiced kata during his competitive days, I also did so. Thus underscoring my belief in kata's aid to shiai. I also was commenting that today DUE TO MY SIZE, SHAPE AND PREMENANT INJURY status, finding a tori for any kata involving lifting (I used JNK especially as my example) has been fruitless in my geographic area. I mentioned that a very large tori would likely be needed, I mentioned Geesink earlier and added Yamashita when reminded of his Kata practice. I shop in the section somewhere between fireplug and brick outhouse when I buy clothes. Spray paint would be cheaper. When I last check the Kata rules an engine hoist was not allowed. :lol:

Now to the comments directly directly at me. First, I am not the first to be seriously injured in shiai. I was and returned to competition. I have also been injured outside of Judo. These injuries have prevented me from kneeing, or sitting on the mat in certain positions; my ability to do ukemi has been greatly reduced, but I can still take certain types of falls enought to protect myself in randori. These miltiple injuries involve thoratic and lombar back including a fracture, neck, hands, knees (following one horrendous injury, the helicopter was called when they at first thought I had damaged the nuero-vascular bundle in addition to all the other damage), hip. I have a state disablity rating weather I want it or not. I am please to do what I can at the level I can. This SADLY does not include kata at a level which allows me to to be worthy of demonstration. I could and did so prior to my injuries. Every day I am thankful I have a lower left leg, can stand upright and have feeling thoroughout most of my extremites. :hap:

So, can you get hurt in shiai. Yes, can it affect you Kata? Yes. Does it happen to everyone? No, thank goodness, only to a small few. :mellow:

danguy :thumbsupsmiley:
If I am doing "win," sloppy and sissy is fine; if I am doing Judo, beautiful is my rule and goal. Judo is far more important and rewarding than "win."

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"You should first try to negotiate nicely but you can be strong after there's resistance, and know, just like in judo, when to catch them." --Rusty Kanokogi, 2008, on negotiating.
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