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Itsutsu no kata debate Rate Topic: -----

#16 User is offline   Gaijin Judoka 

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 08:27 PM

Here is Hanon's post on the first movement,

nvm- posted below
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#17 User is offline   Guardian 

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 08:36 PM

View PostInferus, on Sep 27 2008, 12:57 AM, said:

Mike, would you copy and paste your original post into the one at the start of this thread, so we have all your awesome knowledge in one place please? :-)


First motion and movement;
Uke and tori have made their regisaho, I wont sport with you on this you already know it. Uke and tori spend a moment to collect their thoughts and then empty their minds of those thoughts. The body should be relaxed, flexible yet alert.

Tori advances toward uke. As he closes the space between the two Tori starts to raise his Right hand, palm facing uke. This rise starts from tori's hip area, the hara and collects the spirit of himself and concentrates this force in a controlled manner into his Right hand. The rise should NOT start to soon but with correct timing for when tori arrives at uke his hand is pointing upward, palm toward uke with his fingers out straight and thump out to the side. Contact is made at the sternum where tori's hand is placed flat on the chest of uke.
Now the crap hits the fan. FOR ME. Explaining this.........There is the physical then there is what cannot be seen. I have to now, in my VERY limited way, combine both and try to make sense of something that I cannot yet perform myself. Try that............Okay.

The principle behind what is going to take place is this (perhaps?); There are only two principles Dr Kano applied in his kodokan judo one of them is 'maximum force with minimum effort'. In this first motion and action we have an uke standing untouched and on balance in front of tori who is going to project that uke backward applying this principle and a lot more besides.

Tori starts to slightly apply pressure starting with his thumb then blade of the Right hand in alternating frequency. This action starts a small reaction. The small action eventually becomes amplified and ends with the total destruction of uke. Action and reaction through Hazumi, controlled and quantified and unique to each pair who perform this motion.

So, tori starts to apply this pressure from his hara using the correct amount of energy and ki to achieve his goal. Too much energy or if you push uke would step back to regain his balance. The skill here is to use just enough not to threaten uke so he doesn't move until you want him to and then when he does start to move it should be only in proportional reaction to the action of your Right hand. I am avoiding the word PUSH as their is no push.
As Uke starts to make the small reactions to tori's small actions uke steps back in small steps, Tori moves forward on his Left foot and uke retracts his Right foot, its not a step but a slight stager, these 'steps' are commensurate in size and reaction to the amount of controlled ki tori uses to achieve the reaction of uke.....Crap, this this is MUCH worse than I thought it was going to be. Plod on.

The building of action in tori's hand and the changing direction from the thumb to blade causes a rocking and twisting action in uke that cannot be seen but only felt. Now Tori performs this action until he has achieved the destruction of uke's balance without uke knowing this has happened. When this point of no return occurs the controlled ki and body and mind of tori extends the arm and causes uke, who cannot regain his posture or balance, tori's last step forward is on his Right foot, to crash backward like a log in a stiff manner, If tori pushes then uke should and must regain his posture and balance by stepping backward. This is not theatre but real use of mind, body and mechanics.
So many people push and some even master the ki but overuse this. It is easy to push uke with ki and push him off the tatami? This is so wrong as we should only be using the amount of ki necessary to achieve the principle of 'maximum efficiency with minimum effort'. I have never achieved this in a single performance of this Kata. I end up making the action too big and it is not correct. In other words I push.


Regarding the correct foot to step forward on in terms of tori and the retracting foot of uke. I have written what I was taught. I have also been taught the complete opposite. Tori attacks uke starting on his RIGHT foot and uke steps back on his LEFT foot. Though this may seem significant and it may well be in terms of the shu in this Kata look beyond this as Mifune does and make the Kata alive and achieve the goals. Perfection in movement is useless without the Ha and ri in this Kata, conversely perfection in Ha and ri is useless if the Shu is not correct. Oh dear........HELPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP

And so onto the second action;

Uke lands flat on his back taking his stretched-straight legs into the air and making a rearward ukemi with both arms. No sooner has uke hit the tatami with his arms than his legs go down and his trunk comes up with both hands on this legs. Tori is standing facing uke in silent composure and alertness in ready for any further action.

Uke starts to raise up with his Right knee left on the floor and his Left foot placed onto the tatami, on no account should uke have his feet or legs less than shizenhontai distance apart but maintain balance at all times. Uke makes a spear hand, I THINK this is called shuto? Now we again begin with some difficulties. It is possible for uke to keep his pointed hand at 90 degrees of possible 45 degrees. Will this detract from his presumed ending, I am unsure?
As uke raises he starts to make a forward thrust with shuto aiming at the solar plexus of tori. The attack is realistic and with spirit.

Tori has options. He can stay in the path of this attack and be either hit or he could block. Instead with split second timing tori will not reject this force but accept it and direct it to the defeat again of an attacking uke.
I need to add a pointer here about distance. If uke and tori are far away then tori when making taisabaki may enter toward uke with his Left foot forward thus closing the distance. If the original distance is close then uke may drop straight back onto his Left knee.

Some principles, some background; Dr Kano wrote, in perfect copper placate English, that one of the core physical principles in judo was not to resist force. He explained that if we award uke 10 units of strength-force and uke 7 then if both come together in the centre of a ring and start to push each other the person with 10 units of force-strength, will win. Dr Kano then said that if uke yielded to this force upon being pushed and redirected that force the force from uke could be nullified. Furthermore if Uke added his 7 units of strength to the 10 of uke, uke could be thrown with 17 units of force.........correct.........INCORRECT.
Uke should only make use of the units he has to make the throw functional thus keeping in reserve further units for perhaps another attacker, this may be only one unit from tori? Maximum efficiency minimum effort. Much like the way we don't use a hammer to crack open a boiled egg, well thats unless you eat one my wife has boiled! Looks over shoulder to see where the said lady is? (the man may be 10th dan, the wife is ALWAYS one ahead!)

Now in applying above principle to the second action tori must wait and wait until the exact moment uke's is about to pierce tori. To make any action on tori's part too early may allow uke to change direction or rethink.
We now have an uke coming toward us with great force and determination to hit us. Tori makes tai sabaki and continues the force of that shuto attack then 'throws 'with Uki otoshi. In certain actions of defence in judo is it acceptable to redirect the course of the attack to a given end. In this action is is straightforward action-reaction and the correct use of force to nullify the action of an attacking uke.

Tori drops into uki otoshi kneeling on his Left knee. Now the contact point between uke and tori is that tori's Left hand will catch the attacking Right arm of uke at wrist level, tori's Right hand also adds direction to this movement by clasping uke's Right arm, thumb up at uke's forearm level, There is no grip taken on the gi.

Now the relation to pull and guiding a force into neutrality, this is part the point in this exercises. Too little attack and uke MAY need to revert to some pull. If Uke attacks with gusto tori should continue the force 'line' of that attack and allow it to spend itself by neutralising it and reverting it into a throw. No pull necessary on tori's part.

Principle. Action-reaction. Maximum efficiency with minimum effort. Not opposing force with force but using that force against the attacker. Simple in concept but so difficult to perform with the correct balance of redistribution of force.

As uke attacks he should breath out and as tori makes his taisabki he should also breath out. Tori must not lean backward but maintain good upright posture at all times especially when in the kneeling posture. The toes of tori's Left foot must be placed into the tatami and not left flat upon the tatami. Tai sabaki must be performed with split second timing so as not to warn uke of any attempt at a diversion.

As I have written, the action of tori in terms of pull of guidance only will depend on the force and intent of his uke. Tis brings us to the old debate that is uke thrown or does he throw himself with his own force.

Tori may look at the head of uke and not the hand. This may be to give uke the confidence that his attacking hand is not of notice or significance. In terms of tori is he looks or concentrates on the attacking hand of uke it COULD be a bluff. Tori must show a level of awayness that he can expect and deal with the unexpected. Nothing is taken for granted. One could write that though this is a Kata it must always be performed as it where the first time and tori does not know what uke is going to do.

And onto action three perhaps?

Phew,

Mike


View PostGaijin Judoka, on Sep 27 2008, 04:27 AM, said:

Here is Hanon's post on the first movement,Hello Bob,


OOps you beat me to the punch by 1 minute, I combined the two movements and rectified some minor spelling mistakes.

This post has been edited by Guardian: 26 September 2008 - 08:53 PM

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#18 User is offline   danguy 

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 08:41 PM

View PostSir Harry Flashman, on Sep 26 2008, 05:44 AM, said:

....However, that's within the context of sport judo, generally. The speed, strength, and tenacity associated with shiai is often at odds with the concepts you will see enumerated here.

I would go so far as to say that if katas like INK are introduced early in a judoka's career, to the extent that they can be understood, students might be able to bring these skills to bear in their shiai, and they will be all the more 'ready' to grasp sophisticated concepts throughout their studies.


Shiai training and Kata do and don't mix. Both improve understanding of some facets of Judo. The shiai is "hard" (meaning resistant) Judo and kata "soft" (meaning cooperative) Judo. The katas* (including this thread's) have helped my shiai and my shiai has helped me appriciate the kata lessons. Clearly Shiai training and Kata training have different rythms but are not mutually exclusive. The biggest problem is having enought time to practice for shiai and still have time leftover for Kata study (or the other way around).

I am not making any claims to how well I do demonstrat any Kata I have practiced. However, I know enough not to wear a blue gi while practicing/demonstrating at kata class. I also believe you should learn all as both tori and uke unless it is not possible. I am still looking for a good tori to my JNK uke (perhaps if Geesink came out of retirement or use of an engine hoist was allowed).

This post has been edited by danguy: 26 September 2008 - 08:50 PM

If I am doing "win," sloppy and sissy is fine; if I am doing Judo, beautiful is my rule and goal. Judo is far more important and rewarding than "win."

"What you are as a person is far more important than what you are as a basketball [Judo] player." --John Wooden 1910-2010

"You should first try to negotiate nicely but you can be strong after there's resistance, and know, just like in judo, when to catch them." --Rusty Kanokogi, 2008, on negotiating.
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#19 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 10:14 PM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Sep 26 2008, 10:06 PM, said:

Yup, at the Kodokan Summer Kata Course, where ranks of the participants typically are 4th through 8th dan, we take an entire afternoon to cover the 5 movements. This then is what it looks when demonstrated by experienced kata performers.



Before Hanon-sensei gets mad at me again, I will immediately add my own opinion: I don't like it a bit. Now, these ARE the movements of Itsutsu, but this IS NOT Itsutsu, and in fact has nothing to do with Itsutsu.

Those who can do better in an hour are eligible for a "Cichorei Kano Free Tuition Scholarship". -_-

P.S.: Note me standing in the audience carefully watching the performance. -_-
They don't ? Where did you get that ? :o
'Hiki-otoshi', not uki-otoshi. Uki-otoshi did not yet exist when Itsutsu-no-kata was created, and the two, while similar, are not identical.


How anoying, I agree with all you write Lol.

THE only other sensei I have ever heard refer to the throw as Hiki otoshi was Michigami sensei? How odd. I am using the kodokan classification to avoid any more side tracks.

I read with great interest your post on this kata and there are comments to make. I don't want to make them just yet as I would like to complete the other three actions before I take a detour and then get bogged down with other factors.

Interesting just how near impossible it is for me to articulate this kata. I have limited knowledge and I do warn readers to keep that in mind.

Mike
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#20 User is offline   Inferus 

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 10:16 PM

View Postdanguy, on Sep 26 2008, 09:41 PM, said:

Shiai training and Kata do and don't mix. Both improve understanding of some facets of Judo. The shiai is "hard" (meaning resistant) Judo and kata "soft" (meaning cooperative) Judo. The katas* (including this thread's) have helped my shiai and my shiai has helped me appriciate the kata lessons. Clearly Shiai training and Kata training have different rythms but are not mutually exclusive. The biggest problem is having enought time to practice for shiai and still have time leftover for Kata study (or the other way around).


Go ask Yamashita-sensei if he thinks kata is not for shiai. At the peak of his competitive career he was studying Nage no kata and katame no kata.
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#21 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 27 September 2008 - 12:39 AM

View PostInferus, on Sep 27 2008, 07:16 AM, said:

Go ask Yamashita-sensei if he thinks kata is not for shiai. At the peak of his competitive career he was studying Nage no kata and katame no kata.


Kano-shihan has always emphasized the importance of practicing both randori and kata, not just one or the other. At the height of my competitive career I still tried to attend every kata clinic I knew of. It is complete nonsense that competitive elite judoists would not have the time to study kata. They do other things except for randori too; they stretch, they have lunch, dinner watch TV; nothing that says that instead they could not do kata. In fact, kata is almost entirely responsible for me finally understanding the concept of kuzushi as it should be applied. I was winning all the times, but few of my throws ended in ippon, and when they did it was just because I was fast, strong or caught my opponent by surprise, not because it was perfect throw. It is thanks to kata, in particular Ju-no-kata and Koshiki-no-kata, that I was able to step beyond those limitations, and have uke being thrown not because of me, but because of it, and with minimal effort. I have seen Hitoshi Saito practice kata, I have seen Vande Walle practice kata, and I have seen Brian Jacks practice kata, Isao Okano sensei and I have seen Ezio Gamba practice kata, as well as Wolfgang Hoffman, all except Vande Walle perhaps, with a high degree of understanding, all except perhaps VdW, judoists with exceptional technical skills.

This post has been edited by Cichorei Kano: 27 September 2008 - 12:40 AM

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#22 User is offline   Sir Harry Flashman 

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Posted 27 September 2008 - 12:39 AM

CK,
What happens when a performance like that takes place in front of an assemblage of 4th through 8th Dans? Is there such a thing as murmuring in the ranks at the Kodokan?

No doubt, there are people there from all over the world with all kinds of different backgrounds. Is standardization the aim of a Kodokan seminar, or is it, as they say in politically correct America, celebrating diversity?

I ask because we're getting beyond the differences in the perspectives from which we all approach INK, and so far as I can tell we're all pretty much on the same page as far as the techniques go. Does it - did it - work as well on the mat?

We should let Mike knock through the next techniques in the days ahead. Afterward, one way to use that video constructively is to frame it with the following question: these guys have just walked into your dojo and presented this version of the kata. What coaching would you give them?

"Guys, guys," I would say. "Not to worry. This will only take a few minutes."
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#23 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 27 September 2008 - 12:57 AM

View PostSir Harry Flashman, on Sep 27 2008, 01:39 AM, said:

CK,
What happens when a performance like that takes place in front of an assemblage of 4th through 8th Dans? Is there such a thing as murmuring in the ranks at the Kodokan?

No doubt, there are people there from all over the world with all kinds of different backgrounds. Is standardization the aim of a Kodokan seminar, or is it, as they say in politically correct America, celebrating diversity?

I ask because we're getting beyond the differences in the perspectives from which we all approach INK, and so far as I can tell we're all pretty much on the same page as far as the techniques go. Does it - did it - work as well on the mat?

We should let Mike knock through the next techniques in the days ahead. Afterward, one way to use that video constructively is to frame it with the following question: these guys have just walked into your dojo and presented this version of the kata. What coaching would you give them?

"Guys, guys," I would say. "Not to worry. This will only take a few minutes."


The Kodokan presented that couple with a certificate of 'profound understanding' in this kata.

I have passed comment on this performance in previous threads so will calm down and not write more here. I need to save my energy for the third motion. -_-

What instruction would I give those guys? I would ask them to write me a paper on the INK asking them to write about what the kata is there to teach us and what we can take from it to apply to our daily lives and when in shiai and randori. I would simply ask them what they where demonstrating. A simple explanation.
In defence of those guys I will repeat myself. I feel sure that had they been allowed to perform 'their' kata and not a photocopy of what was taught at the previous seminar I think we may have seen a nice kata. You can't clone kata and then give points for it on paper, its a simple and utter nonsense. I fear this sportification of kata may well do to kata what the sportification of shiai has done for shiai. I also fear the speed at which this sportification will procede is faster than any of us care to realise. It did take 50+ years to see the end of kodokan shiai as it should be seen, I think it may only take another 5 years to see this happen to the kata then I shall be a true dinosaur.

Can you imagine what the kodokan sensei would say if they saw me perform this kata. I fear a few may well pass out. After all as they awarded the above clip a profound understanding certificate then my performance would receive an unprofound understanding loo role. My INK looks nothing like that in motion or feel. I hope! :rolleyes:

Mike

Part three in the morning. Starts to get interesting does this.
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#24 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 27 September 2008 - 01:01 AM

View PostSir Harry Flashman, on Sep 27 2008, 09:39 AM, said:

CK,
What happens when a performance like that takes place in front of an assemblage of 4th through 8th Dans? Is there such a thing as murmuring in the ranks at the Kodokan?

No doubt, there are people there from all over the world with all kinds of different backgrounds. Is standardization the aim of a Kodokan seminar, or is it, as they say in politically correct America, celebrating diversity?

I ask because we're getting beyond the differences in the perspectives from which we all approach INK, and so far as I can tell we're all pretty much on the same page as far as the techniques go. Does it - did it - work as well on the mat?

We should let Mike knock through the next techniques in the days ahead. Afterward, one way to use that video constructively is to frame it with the following question: these guys have just walked into your dojo and presented this version of the kata. What coaching would you give them?

"Guys, guys," I would say. "Not to worry. This will only take a few minutes."


***Deleted***

This post has been edited by Cichorei Kano: 27 September 2008 - 01:14 AM

"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
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#25 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 27 September 2008 - 01:11 AM

I have this awful sinking feeling in my tummy. What could that be. It is not indigestion. I think the door has just been left open again.

Mike
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#26 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 27 September 2008 - 01:14 AM

View PostHanon, on Sep 27 2008, 10:11 AM, said:

I have this awful sinking feeling in my tummy. What could that be. It is not indigestion. I think the door has just been left open again.

Mike


Now better ? <_<
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
"I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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#27 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 27 September 2008 - 01:20 AM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Sep 27 2008, 02:14 AM, said:

Now better ? <_<


Much. Lets on no account let this thread slip by inviting those who don't know, start to dicate to those who are trying to help. I have deliberately left out certain 'key' words that I would have enjoyed using in my texts just to avoid such unwanted visitors. Its a pain in the rear but there we go. Kusotare are no rare beast here!

Mike, your forum Bonkura.

This post has been edited by Hanon: 02 October 2008 - 05:29 PM

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#28 User is offline   danguy 

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Posted 27 September 2008 - 01:44 AM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Sep 26 2008, 02:06 PM, said:

QUOTE(danguy @ Sep 27 2008, 05:41 AM) Shiai training and Kata do and don't mix. Both improve understanding of some facets of Judo.


They don't ? Where did you get that ?
As I said in my post, it is more of a time issue. I got from kata help with shiai. And from shiai practice, conditioning to perform kata. My shiai injuries have greatly limited my kata ablities.I repectfully stand by my "do and don't" comment.; though I should have given more detail.

View PostInferus, on Sep 26 2008, 03:16 PM, said:

Go ask Yamashita-sensei if he thinks kata is not for shiai. At the peak of his competitive career he was studying Nage no kata and katame no kata.


As was I; I started with NNK in 1970 and we met in 1979. While he beat me in shiai, he might be able to be my JNK tori. We could work well as partners from a size stand point. However, as noted above, my shiai and other non-Judo injuries greatly limit my kata performance. I am several inches shorter than him and now weigh more than he (unlike 1979); though my weigh has been dropping through my efforts.

This post has been edited by danguy: 27 September 2008 - 01:51 AM

If I am doing "win," sloppy and sissy is fine; if I am doing Judo, beautiful is my rule and goal. Judo is far more important and rewarding than "win."

"What you are as a person is far more important than what you are as a basketball [Judo] player." --John Wooden 1910-2010

"You should first try to negotiate nicely but you can be strong after there's resistance, and know, just like in judo, when to catch them." --Rusty Kanokogi, 2008, on negotiating.
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#29 User is offline   danguy 

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Posted 27 September 2008 - 01:59 AM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Sep 26 2008, 05:39 PM, said:

Kano-shihan has always emphasized the importance of practicing both randori and kata, not just one or the other. At the height of my competitive career I still tried to attend every kata clinic I knew of. It is complete nonsense that competitive elite judoists would not have the time to study kata. They do other things except for randori too; they stretch, they have lunch, dinner watch TV; nothing that says that instead they could not do kata. In fact, kata is almost entirely responsible for me finally understanding the concept of kuzushi as it should be applied. I was winning all the times, but few of my throws ended in ippon, and when they did it was just because I was fast, strong or caught my opponent by surprise, not because it was perfect throw. It is thanks to kata, in particular Ju-no-kata and Koshiki-no-kata, that I was able to step beyond those limitations, and have uke being thrown not because of me, but because of it, and with minimal effort. I have seen Hitoshi Saito practice kata, I have seen Vande Walle practice kata, and I have seen Brian Jacks practice kata, Isao Okano sensei and I have seen Ezio Gamba practice kata, as well as Wolfgang Hoffman, all except Vande Walle perhaps, with a high degree of understanding, all except perhaps VdW, judoists with exceptional technical skills.


That is why I too study both. But when we (many top 'coaches') in the USA have the believe we don't have enough time to learn just randori/shiai Judo; it is UNlikely to believe those same folks will spend time on kata. I believe they should and many fine players do benefit from the kata study. But again in all honesty CK and other, please accept the fact that several shiai injuries permanently changed my body and limited certains actions from it. For me, shiai does detract from my kata and will do so for life. That is a personal statement, true for me; not a global kata/shiai pronouncement.

This post has been edited by danguy: 27 September 2008 - 02:02 AM

If I am doing "win," sloppy and sissy is fine; if I am doing Judo, beautiful is my rule and goal. Judo is far more important and rewarding than "win."

"What you are as a person is far more important than what you are as a basketball [Judo] player." --John Wooden 1910-2010

"You should first try to negotiate nicely but you can be strong after there's resistance, and know, just like in judo, when to catch them." --Rusty Kanokogi, 2008, on negotiating.
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#30 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 27 September 2008 - 02:55 AM

View Postdanguy, on Sep 27 2008, 10:59 AM, said:

That is why I too study both. But when we (many top 'coaches') in the USA have the believe we don't have enough time to learn just randori/shiai Judo; it is UNlikely to believe those same folks will spend time on kata. I believe they should and many fine players do benefit from the kata study. But again in all honesty CK and other, please accept the fact that several shiai injuries permanently changed my body and limited certains actions from it. For me, shiai does detract from my kata and will do so for life. That is a personal statement, true for me; not a global kata/shiai pronouncement.


It will take me a little bit longer ... sort of awaiting if the US is soon going to increase it dozens of Olympic and World Championship medals, before I am going to accept whatever "many top 'coaches in the USA" (I did not even know there were any) believe as the gospel regarding how judo needs to be performed or studied. The way I see it "those same folks" have a lot of things they should be doing which they are not doing if they want to realize their goals such as obtaining medals. "Those same folks" are also the ones 'Swanlaking' around tiptoeing the tatami in their blue gi and baseball caps.

And as to you believing "many fine players do benefit from kata", this needs correction to "every single judoist good or bad WILL benefit from kata training".

So, you had lots of injuries, very well, sorry to hear that, and you are suggesting now that those injuries would prevent you to do any kata but not shiai ? Why have a I hard time believing that. Unless you are in a wheel chair with your legs paralyzed and half your back in arthrodesis, I do not see how you would not be able to practice any of the kata. I appreciate that some people because of knee injuries can't sit on their knees and do 'cat-a-me-no-kata', and others because of back or neck injuries cannot do fall anymore, sure, but there is a lot to do that does not include falls. Ju-no-kata and go-no-kata do not include any falls. And if one's back is truly so bad that even the least bending is impossible, then there is still Sei-ryoku zenyo kokumin taiiku.

But irrespective of that ... why would you attempt to extrapolate your own private injury history to what everyone should be doing, in particular those (I assume most people) who have not had your specific injuries ?

I am also a bit confused by your statement in respond to Inferus' comment:

Inferus: "Go ask Yamashita-sensei if he thinks kata is not for shiai. At the peak of his competitive career he was studying Nage no kata and katame no kata." (...)

You: "As was I; I started with NNK in 1970 and we met in 1979. While he beat me in shiai, he might be able to be my JNK tori." (...)

Are you saying you fought Yamashita in competition in 1979 at his top ? And you want him to be your tori ? Yamashita is an 8th dan and past Olympic and multiple world champion. Don't you think there is some difference in level and experience between the two of you ?

This post has been edited by Cichorei Kano: 27 September 2008 - 04:09 AM

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