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Itsutsu no kata debate Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 11:06 AM

As an olive branch offering and a way of a sincere apology for my behaviour in the past few threads, If any peer is interested in continuing the debate on this kata I will give it a bash. I understand if posters prefer not to debate this kata at present with me.

Sincerely,

Mike :hap:

This post has been edited by Hanon: 26 September 2008 - 11:08 AM

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#2 User is offline   Inferus 

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 11:08 AM

Yes Mike that would be nice, please.

Get on with technique two please! Oh and answer my PM ;-)

This post has been edited by Inferus: 26 September 2008 - 11:08 AM

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#3 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 11:23 AM

View PostInferus, on Sep 26 2008, 12:08 PM, said:

Yes Mike that would be nice, please.

Get on with technique two please! Oh and answer my PM ;-)


Hello Craig san,

I don't have a PM from you to answer? I try to always reply to Pm's? I will go take another look.

Hope you are well?

Please remeber Craig san that this kata is beyond me. Though I am so far from clever and this is no insult to you, I do think, at your present stage in learning, you would be well advised to learn the kata in the order they are suggested and not jump them. I think you have a flavour of what the kata are about and this one along with the Koshiki and Ju are very very difficult and demanding. I dont think one could even begin to understand this kata from what I am able to write about it here. I am very concerned for you. It would be easy for me to enter into debate with you on this kata but this would not show teacher-pupil respect from my part but rather a contempt for you that I don't have.
You are so keen to learn judo, you positively thirst knowledge. I love that about you Craig and deisre only to channel such eagerness into the right area of judo so you will grow with strong roots that will eventually support your future knowledge base.
You and I are, via PM, debating your Nage no kata. I am not discounting you as a person nor judoka when I write I strongly suggest that you and I continue the instruction in the randori no kata prior to you spreading yourself thinly into this kata.
I care about you and your judo. I am not being confrontational but as realistic and helpful as I am able.
Before even trying to take something from what I write here the poster MUST have practiced this kata under the supervision of a Sensei. What I write here 'may' only compliment ones already established knowledge with this kata. I would not be so forward under any circumstances to claim I can teach this kata especialy using this media.

Your friend,

Mike

This post has been edited by Hanon: 26 September 2008 - 12:07 PM

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#4 User is offline   Inferus 

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 11:31 AM

View PostHanon, on Sep 26 2008, 12:23 PM, said:

Hello Craig san,

I don't have a PM from you to answer? I try to always reply to Pm's? I will go take another look.


Oh you do! It was regarding your itsutsu post around technique #1, and how its helped me discover something about Judo.

View PostHanon, on Sep 26 2008, 12:23 PM, said:

Hope you are well?

Please remeber Craig san that this kata is beyond me. Thogh I am so far from clever and this is no insult to you I do think at your present stage in learning you would be well advised to learn the kata in the order they are suggested and not jump them. I think you have a flavour of what the kata are about and this one along with the Koshiki and Ju are very very difficult and demanding. I dont think one could even begin to understand this kata from what I am able to write about it here. I am very concerned for you. It would be easy for me to enter into debate with you on this kata but this would not show teacher pupil respect o from my part byt rather a contempt for you that I dont have.
You are so keen to learn judo, your positivly thirst knowledge. I love that about you Craig and deisre only to channel such eagerness into the right are of judo so you will grow with strong roots that will eventually support your future knowledge base.
You and I are, via PM, debating your Nage no kata. I am not discounting you as a person nor judoka when I write I strongly suggest that you and I continue the instruction in the randori no kata prior to you speading yourself thinly into this kata.
I care about you and your judo. I am not being confrontational but as realistic and helpful as I am able.
Before even trying to take something from what I write here the poster MUST have practiced this kata under the supervision of a Sensei. What I write here may only compliment ones already established knowledge with this kata. I would not be so forward under any circumstances to claim I can teach this kata especialy using this media.

Your friend,

Mike


Again Mike-sensei, I'm not looking at learning Itsutsu for a while. I might have a go at a few of the techniques just to see how they work but I know I will have no understanding. I simply like to read what you write about Itsutsu, as I find smaller points and tips about movements and things in general from your writings. One that struck a cord and I wrote in PM to you was that you helped me discover the link between my hara and kuzushi.

I will quickly describe what I pm'd you. When I am doing osoto gari, I found that if I do the throw and try to do the kuzushi with just my hands, not a lot happens as I do not have the arm strength. If I use my hara and just sink my hips 1 or 2 inches as I pull down on your sleeve on the step with my left foot, you will almost fall down from just Kuzushi alone? It is so difficult to describe what I found in words, as it is something you have to feel. Essentially I use my body weight to add strength, but without having to use my legs. I attach myself to the ground to generate more power?

I found this out from your post about technique #1. Didn't even look at the post in regards to the kata, but simply because of the way INK is, and how it displays Judo principle, I discovered something about one of those principles from your writings, if that makes sense?

This post has been edited by Inferus: 26 September 2008 - 11:33 AM

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#5 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 12:16 PM

View PostInferus, on Sep 26 2008, 12:31 PM, said:

Oh you do! It was regarding your itsutsu post around technique #1, and how its helped me discover something about Judo.
Again Mike-sensei, I'm not looking at learning Itsutsu for a while. I might have a go at a few of the techniques just to see how they work but I know I will have no understanding. I simply like to read what you write about Itsutsu, as I find smaller points and tips about movements and things in general from your writings. One that struck a cord and I wrote in PM to you was that you helped me discover the link between my hara and kuzushi.

I will quickly describe what I pm'd you. When I am doing osoto gari, I found that if I do the throw and try to do the kuzushi with just my hands, not a lot happens as I do not have the arm strength. If I use my hara and just sink my hips 1 or 2 inches as I pull down on your sleeve on the step with my left foot, you will almost fall down from just Kuzushi alone? It is so difficult to describe what I found in words, as it is something you have to feel. Essentially I use my body weight to add strength, but without having to use my legs. I attach myself to the ground to generate more power?

I found this out from your post about technique #1. Didn't even look at the post in regards to the kata, but simply because of the way INK is, and how it displays Judo principle, I discovered something about one of those principles from your writings, if that makes sense?


Hiya,

What you write is perhaps not related to the INK and Hara but the biomechanics of COG? We are going to take this thread into areas I dont think it should go if we write about this here. I am interested in your self discovery and this certainly needs further exploration.
I am ever mindful that this thread should and must be concentrated on the INK or I may well go screaming down the road with my underwear on my head scaring all the live stock! :P

I am pleased you read the posts and find them of interest.

Your friend,

Mike
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#6 User is offline   wdax 

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 12:19 PM

View PostInferus, on Sep 26 2008, 01:31 PM, said:

I will quickly describe what I pm'd you. When I am doing osoto gari, I found that if I do the throw and try to do the kuzushi with just my hands, not a lot happens as I do not have the arm strength. If I use my hara and just sink my hips 1 or 2 inches as I pull down on your sleeve on the step with my left foot, you will almost fall down from just Kuzushi alone? It is so difficult to describe what I found in words, as it is something you have to feel. Essentially I use my body weight to add strength, but without having to use my legs. I attach myself to the ground to generate more power?

I found this out from your post about technique #1. Didn't even look at the post in regards to the kata, but simply because of the way INK is, and how it displays Judo principle, I discovered something about one of those principles from your writings, if that makes sense?


Hi Craig,

I will try to give you some hints, which lessons you can draw from the second technique. I hope it helps you....

First: keep in mind everything you took from the first technique. The core of Uke´s will attack happens a similar way and Tori reacts in a pulling action, not in a pushing. Only the direction changes, everything else follows the lessons you learned in technique #1.

But additionally there is an action (Uke´s Attack) and reaction (Tori´s respons) problem. This happens in three stages:
- Tori mus pick-up Uke´s movement (Ukes initiative, Tori reacts)
- motion is synchronized ("powerless") for a fraction of a second
- Tori takes the initiative by boosting his pulling action (which of course comes from the whole body/hara) just as much he needs to break Uke´s balance

I love this movement - and in randori you can always try to find a way to synchronize yourself with your partners motion and then add a little bit of power and throw.....

Good Luck!

... I hope it doesn´t sound stupid...... I needed a lot help from a dict.....
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#7 User is offline   Sir Harry Flashman 

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 12:44 PM

From the Loyal Opposition, a position statement:

INK consists of five essentially simple maneuvers. As senseis discuss them in detail here, readers will be able to consider a great many concepts on movement and bodily control that are vital to the art of Judo. The five movements are indeed simple enough that a reasonably experienced judoka can learn them in an hour's time. Can they do them well or understand them thoroughly in that time? That's not likely, to put it mildly. INK packs a lifetime's worth of lessons. It must be revisited constantly through the years.

I accept the elder Dans' contention that that many, or most, judoka are not 'ready' to study INK. However, that's within the context of sport judo, generally. The speed, strength, and tenacity associated with shiai is often at odds with the concepts you will see enumerated here.

I would go so far as to say that if katas like INK are introduced early in a judoka's career, to the extent that they can be understood, students might be able to bring these skills to bear in their shiai, and they will be all the more 'ready' to grasp sophisticated concepts throughout their studies.
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#8 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 01:30 PM

View PostSir Harry Flashman, on Sep 26 2008, 01:44 PM, said:

From the Loyal Opposition, a position statement:

INK consists of five essentially simple maneuvers. As senseis discuss them in detail here, readers will be able to consider a great many concepts on movement and bodily control that are vital to the art of Judo. The five movements are indeed simple enough that a reasonably experienced judoka can learn them in an hour's time. Can they do them well or understand them thoroughly in that time? That's not likely, to put it mildly. INK packs a lifetime's worth of lessons. It must be revisited constantly through the years.

I accept the elder Dans' contention that that many, or most, judoka are not 'ready' to study INK. However, that's within the context of sport judo, generally. The speed, strength, and tenacity associated with shiai is often at odds with the concepts you will see enumerated here.

I would go so far as to say that if katas like INK are introduced early in a judoka's career, to the extent that they can be understood, students might be able to bring these skills to bear in their shiai, and they will be all the more 'ready' to grasp sophisticated concepts throughout their studies.


Hiya Sir Harry,

I find it odd you identify yourself as the opposition rather than a partner in verbal debate. You write an interesting post. I enjoyed reading it.

May we explore your sentence that this kata is only for those of considerable experience is down to sport judo mentality. I dont have such a mentality so this cannot be the case. :manoyes:

How can students understand letter writing and grammar and punctuation when they have no knowledge of the alphabet? I am sure you have given much thought to your view point, I am struggling to see the logic in it though? All things educational are taught in a certain manner of progression. Ukemi must come first in judo and be practiced each and every lesson regardless of rank or age.
A concert pianist will spend hours practicing scales on the piano before even starting to practice a piece of music. This will be a life long practice regardless of the pianist!

Lets take music as an axample. Would you, as a hyperthetical teacher of music, start a pupil on playing Rachmaninovs second concerti from lesson one :unsure: . Of course not, you realise, that though this may be an ambition, a lot of work must FIRST be done to prepare the student for this time.

There is nothing in the least mystical about judo, no hidden agendas or secrets only hard practice and learning. This is simplistic though as there are ways in which we need to learn and progress.
You MAY feel it acceptable to teach Craig this very kata. Craig is a 1st kyu with a few years of experience. Does this mean he is stupid and he cannot learn the ITK as he is dumb? No, it means craig, like all other pupils, have limits that are natural and acceptable and those limits are in accordance with the lores of education and learning.

You mention you could teach the physical actions of this kata to a person in one hour. You may think you can and PERHAPS, with great respect, this says what level of understanding you are at presently and this is not being confrontational, please understand this. I agree one could walk a person through parts of this kata. What is the use of that, this is not learning the kata but learning...........well, what?

Accept it or fight it there is a progression to learning. Judo is no exception. This kata is so physically and intllectually demanding that very few people understand it. I think some evidence of this is shown in our very system of ranks. How many kodokan 10th dan have there been, how many 9th dans? The highest non Kodokan judo rank in the world is 8th dan and then only awarded to a handful of people. This is not ALL about politics.

The greater education in judo is there for us all to learn. If we achieve that learning will depend, like ALL education, on the individual and his personal abilities, both physical and intellectual. I am painfully aware of my present limitations and often despair with myself.

I am certain you will learn this kata. You have all the key psychologial components to learn. Have a little patience with yourself and perhaps accept that there is more beneath this kata than one can see with the human eye. The fact so little is written about this kata is perhaps an indication of this?

I have written this reply to you as I appreciate your openness and honesty in setting the scene of learning. This is my reply.

I hope we are partners here and that we shall explore each others depth of learning. I have written for years that a sensei or teacher is only as good as his pupils and peers make him. Questions are vital not only for the pupil but for the sensei and teacher. I warmly welcome your partnership in this debate and know we shall keep each other on our respective toes. :hap:

Mike :hap:

Now to the second action. I see this is post 8 and I have yet to write a word about it? Lol

This post has been edited by Hanon: 26 September 2008 - 01:39 PM

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#9 User is offline   Inferus 

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 02:16 PM

View PostHanon, on Sep 26 2008, 02:30 PM, said:

There is nothing in the least mystical about judo, no hidden agendas or secrets only hard practice and learning. This is simplistic though as there are ways in which we need to learn and progress.
You MAY feel it acceptable to teach Craig this very kata. Craig is a 1st kyu with a few years of experience. Does this mean he is stupid and he cannot learn the ITK as he is dumb? No, it means craig, like all other pupils, have limits that are natural and acceptable and those limits are in accordance with the lores of education and learning.


I, for once, actually agree with this.

The problem I would have, is not that I could not do the throws, but I would not understand the movements. I can do yoko wakare and yoko guruma well but the techniques in INK require much more than just that.

I can see now how it kind of works. In Judo, if I demonstrate to a beginner say, Ogoshi, then they understand that they need to pull uke forwards, bend their knees and turn in then throw over. However, after a good while of looking at Ogoshi, once starts to realise many things.

In order to do it, you need to catch uke's feet in a certain position, and at a certain timing. You also learn that the direction of the pull for kuzushi is much more accurate and consistent at a different angle. You can then delve deeper and find that the way in which you pull is a combination of the feet arms and most importantly, center of gravity. You learn about how the position of your hips relative to your feet/knees/shoulders affects your Judo.

There is a massive reason why Hanon/CK/PTN say to do Judo standing up, but for me to explain it to a white belt is pointless. They just need to trust me when I tell them, they are best to stand up straight. This is what Hanon/Ck mean when you should just do as they say.

Oh and if you are wondering, my opinion as to why you hold your body in such a "structure" is ...kuzushi is easier as you are using your center to move uke to create kuzushi. In a bent over posture, your hara is in the void between your head and your toes. This means it is not even attached to your body, and you are essentially moving around in a state of kuzushi.

So back to my original point.

I think to perform INK, you need to know all of these little things that affect your Judo. Shizenhontai, controlling your hips properly, etc. Without them, your INK performance looks like the video CK-sensei posted. These small things are the difference between seeing a crisp throw, and a poor throw.

This post has been edited by Inferus: 26 September 2008 - 02:17 PM

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#10 User is offline   kodokanjudo 

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 02:57 PM

I understand what Hanon-sensei is trying to say here.
After so many years in judo, I can do well and teach NNK and GNK. My kime-no-kata is fair at best right now and my koshiki-no-kata still needs years of work. That makes me pretty much up to date for my rank level right now.
I have pittled with ju-no-kata and isutsu-no-kata and can say that they are way above me right now. Maybe in 10 to 15 years, I can begin to make some sence of them...

This post has been edited by kodokanjudo: 26 September 2008 - 02:58 PM

"True Judoka do not follow rank, rank follows true judoka".
anon.
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#11 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 03:14 PM

And so;

Uke lands flat on his back taking his stretched-straight legs into the air and making a rearward ukemi with both arms. No sooner has uke hit the tatami with his arms than his legs go down and his trunk comes up with both hands on this legs. Tori is standing facing uke in silent composure and alertness in ready for any further action.

Uke starts to raise up with his Right knee left on the floor and his Left foot placed onto the tatami, on no account should uke have his feet or legs less than shizenhontai distance appart but maintain balance at all times. Uke makes a spear hand, I THINK this is called shuto? Now we again begin with some difficulties. It is possible for uke to keep his pointed hand at 90degrees of possible 45degrees. Will this detract from his presumed ending, I am unsure?
As uke raises he starts to make a forward thrust with shuto aiming at the solar plexus of tori. The attack is realistic and with spirit.

Tori has options. He can stay in the path of this attack and be either hit or he could block. Instead with split second timing tori will not reject this force but accept it and direct it to the defeat again of an attacking uke.
I need to add a pointer here about distance. If uke and tori are far away then tori when making taisabaki may enter toward uke with his Left foot forward thus closing the distance. If the original distance is close then uke may drop straingt back onto his Left knee.

Some principles, some background; Dr Kano wrote, in perfect copper placte English, that one of the core physical principles in judo was not to resist force. He eplained that if we award uke 10 units of strength-force and uke 7 then if both come together in the centre of a ring and start to push each other the person with 10 units of force-strength, will win. Dr kano then said that if uke yeilded to this force upon being pushed and redirected that force the force from uke could be nullified. Furthermore if Uke added his 7 units of strength to the 10 of uke, uke could be thrown with 17 units of force.........correct.........INCORRECT.
Uke should only make use of the units he has to make the throw functional thus keeping in reserve further units for perhaps another attacker, this may be only one unit from tori? Maximum efficiency minimum effort. Much like the way we don't use a hammer to crack open a boiled egg, well thats unless you eat one my wife has boiled! :rolleyes: Looks over shoulder to see where the said lady is? (the man may be 10th dan, the wife is ALWAYS one ahead!)

Now in applying above principle to the second action tori must wait and wait untill the exact moment ukes is about to pierce tori. To make any action on toris part too early may allow uke to change direction or rethink.
We now have an uke comming toward us with great force and determination to hit us. Tori makes tai sabaki and continues the force of that shuto attack then 'throws 'with Uki otoshi. In certain actions of defence in judo is it acceptable to redirect the course of the attack to a given end. In this action is is straigtforwrd action-reaction and the correct use of force to nullify the action of an attacking uke.

Tori drops into uki otoshi kneeling on his Left knee. Now the contact point between uke and tori is that toris Left hand will catch the attacking Right arm of uke at wrist level, Toris Right hand also adds direction to this movement by clasping ukes Right arm, thumb up at ukes forearm level, There is no grip taken on the gi.

Now the relation to pull and guiding a force into neautrality, this is part the point in this excercise. Too little attack and uke MAY need to revert to some pull. If Uke attacks with gusto tori should continue the force 'line' of that attack and allow it to spend itself by neuralising it and reverting it into a throw. No pull neseccary on toris part.

Principle. Action-reaction. Maximim efficiency with minimum effort. Not opposing force with force but using that force against the attacker. Simple in concept but so difficult to perform with the correct balance of redistribution of force.

As uke attacks he should breath out and as tori makes his taisabki he should also breath out. Tori must not lean backward but maintain good upright posture at all times especially when in the kneeling posture. The toes of toris Left foot must be placed into the tatami and not left flat upon the tatami. Tai sabaki must be performed with split second timing so as not to warn uke of any attempt at a diversion.

As I have written, the action of tori in terms of pull of guidance only will depend on the force and intent of his uke. Tis brings us to the old debate that is uke thrown or does he throw himself with his own force.

Tori may look at the head of uke and not the hand. This may be to give uke the confidence that his attacking hand is not of notice or significance. In terms of tori is he looks or concentrates on the attacking hand of uke it COULD be a bluff. Tori must show a level of awarness that he can expect and deal with the unexpected. Nothing is taken for granted. One could write that though this is a kata it must always be performed as it where the first time and tori does not know what uke is going to do.

And onto action three perhaps?

Phew,

Mike
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#12 User is offline   Francois 

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 04:16 PM

Excellent job with the first two movements Mike. I don't think I'm missing anything but to me they are not simple moves. I have taught this kata to BB where the lowest rank was a san-dan. It took me over two hours just to get them to perform the first movement in a somewhat decent manner. I don't know how anyone including Daigo sensei himself can teach all five movements in an hour.
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#13 User is offline   Inferus 

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 04:57 PM

Mike, would you copy and paste your original post into the one at the start of this thread, so we have all your awesome knowledge in one place please? :-)
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#14 User is offline   Sir Harry Flashman 

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 05:54 PM

Mike,

I am glad to be back at the table with you, carving once more into the thick of it.

On technique 2, two thoughts: 'No pull is necessary on tori's part?' That makes two things all the more important, tori's split second timing and the vigor in uke's attack. On the topic of where tori is looking, be it the hand or the head: my sensei used to say you don't look at anything. You take an unfocused view at about chest level and you can 'see' everything, including what's out at the periphery.

On the sport vs. kata comment: this might be an issue of writing clarity, or it might help to clarify some context in where I'm coming from. I've written about my aged and wise sensei in Alaska a few times on this Forum. The last time I was up there was this past March, and I returned chewing over three major concepts: the infinitely small center - the idea that with proper control and proper balance even the smallest movements can throw an uke. There was the an enhanced look at the idea of extending the energy and force an opponent imparts and finally the notion of exploiting the shifts of weight and structure inside an opponent's body. The very first thing I did when I got back to my Washington DC club was pull out the book and run through Itsutsu No kata with a partner. "This is what these guys are doing up there," I told him. It wasn't the kata per se, but the ideas within. INK helped me put my thoughts together, and as a result I wrote that gigantic thread entitled "Judo in an Alternate Universe."

More recently, in moving to Puerto Rico I got involved in a sport dojo - an Olympic dojo, as a matter of fact, because I blundered right into the fray as they were training Puerto Rico's three entrants for the games in Beijing. I can tell you quite sincerely that this was an entirely different brand of Judo from what I had been doing. It was fast, powerful, and all flexors and extensors. It was rough stuff, brutal gripping of the gi, beautiful in many cases, but not centered, whole body movement. Whether there is time for that kind of bodily carriage in modern competitive judo is a debate for another time.

In fact, I think that's why kata, even Randori No kata, is so foreign to players nowadays. They're taught to attack, to pull uke, and make the throws happen. The 'blending' of kata, to steal a word form aikido, is exactly the opposite of what they've done from Day One. For clarity's sake, that's what I meant. It's been my experience that competitive judo and kata styled judo are divergent paths.

Again, based on my experiences here and in Guam, Florida, and Alaska prior to 1999, I think I'm making an approach to INK and this discussion from a very different perspective than a lot of judoka. (I've also written about the history of our style, and the ultimate heritage is a bit of a mystery, but it would seem to lie in Hawaii in a blend of Judo and Jujutsu. Strangely enough, I see vestiges of our stuff in Krav Maga, of all places, so if someone can trace the jujutsu background there, we might be on to something.)
Centered, whole body mechanics are taught from Day One. At about the three week mark, I can show a beginner yoko wakare and yoko guruma. They'll have to know them, since they'll be getting them as counters, as a way to test whether they're doing their O goshis correctly.
When that Ochiai video of the rare and secret Go No Kata flashed across the Forum about a month ago, I was mainly astonished by it. Those are skills my sensei would do ALL the time as a means to make larger points about whole body carriage. You're not going to believe me - PTNippon is going to fall down dead - but I can do some of those things too - to an extent, or at least I understand how they work.

PTNippon: I don't want to be enemies with you either, but when you mean to say no one, including Daigo, could teach this in an hour, I'm tempted to write, "If you're struggling with the whirlwind, go hit a ballroom dancing class. You'll have the turning with a partner down in about 10 minutes." I see analogies to these movements everywhere. On the thread that's closed now, did you see the bit I wrote about my neighbor who ducked a bully's rush on Halloween? That's Technique 5, and he did that instantly.
The other day, during the whole dust up on the other thread, my daughter jumped on me for a piggy back when I wasn't ready for it, which made me stagger backwards. I was about to go over, and before I had a chance to snarl something at her, my thought was, My God; my ten year old can do this kata. She was creating and exploiting a structural flaw: technique 4.
Any bullfighter in Spain could eat technique 2 for lunch, all the while holding a red cape.

It goes on from there. I never said any great level of understanding can be achieved in an hour. The starting points, however, are perfectly accessible for ordinary mortals.

This post has been edited by Sir Harry Flashman: 26 September 2008 - 05:57 PM

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 08:05 PM

View PostInferus, on Sep 26 2008, 05:57 PM, said:

Mike, would you copy and paste your original post into the one at the start of this thread, so we have all your awesome knowledge in one place please? :-)


You jest! I wouldn't know where to start? Perhaps we could ask Jonsey or PTNippon Sensei if they could do this for you?


Sir Harry,
I agree with your sensei. It is wise to take in the picture in a 3D manner and never focus on one point. I cant manage that either yet though! I still find myself looking. Now in the Ju no kata I can perform that kata perhaps with my eyes closed as I can feel the actions of tori, to a very beginners point of view.

I think we need to clear something up regarding your comment about the hour long session. You could teach something in five minutes but as I wrote before it would not be and could not be the INK. No, sorry, I am being B+W. I should write I have never found a teacher who would even try this. I do not teach this kata outside my own dojo and safe zone. I do teach most of the other kata at seminars etc, though I dislike doing so as I lack self confidence to do so.
At your age you HAVE to be full of confidence and thats great. I think you will find as you progress that some of the things you write today will change over time. I have writen on judo and when I look at what I wrote only 5-10 years ago I desire to burn the stuff.

You have found an amazing sensei. A machi dojo much like the one I found in Japan some years ago. These sensei who do not advertise themselves but teach and chose their pupils are getting so rare. You should and must learn as much from this Sensei as you can while you can. I dont think you will find another. I may assure you I do understand what you write about your wise and wonderfull Sensei.

Back to the INK. I agree with all PTNippon Sensei writes (also CKSensei). PLEASE understand that this is NOT becuase he is Kohaku rank, Nor is it because we are the very best of friends, nor is it because we are rudley called the bishops of judo lol. It is because he is simply correct. PTNippon Sensei judo and mine have been learned in different manners with different Sensei, well we do share some sensei but in general they are different. Non the less we have both learned these kata from top sensei and it has taken years. You will not find Nogaki Sensei or me write we know this kata. We have spent hundreds of hours on it though?
This in itself can mean nothing in isolation but when CKsensei and Nogaki sensei agree on this, thats three. I may be wrong I doubt if all three of us are though, see my point?

More later,

My best to you Sir Harry, thank you for the honour of debate.

Mike
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