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"Nai Ki" in Ju-no-kata and Ki in general Wide-ranging debate beyond Ju-no-kata considerations Rate Topic: ***-- 5 Votes

#31 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 11:15 PM

View PostMike Sigman, on Jul 17 2008, 12:08 AM, said:

Hi Mike:

Incidentally, just to save time....

If you look at my posts offering the static-posture URL, a large part of my point was that ki, nai ki, etc., is reasonably well-defined not just by any assertions I make, but by books offering examples clearly indicated as "ki". For instance, there are examples in Feldenkrais, EJ Harris, Tohei, Cheng Man Ching, and many others, using just the example that I offered, so my example can't be construed as a "here's my take on it". On the other hand, your offer had a lot to do with your own perception of what ki means and it related not to a specific instance or definable moment in time. That's one point.

My other point is that any dynamic situation can be analysed statically (which is what the one-legged stance offers us a chance to do). For instance, we can say something like "So-and-so hit a punching bag unbelievably strongly". That's a vague analysis. We should be able to analyse a punch at any incremental moment in time and be able to determine the size of the forces and the direction of the forces which deliver an "unbelievably strong" hit. In other words, nothing ever just appears nor does anything express energies/forces that cannot be accounted for. "Energy" is a term that essentially implies an accounting system because energies do not appear out of nothing and they must ultimately reconcile.

So while I think a debate is a good idea, I'd like to stress that "Ki" skills will ultimately do one thing that is in accord with western science... they will conform to accounting and not be subject to simply "here's my opinion". One of my teachers once demonstrated what looked to me and several other fairly critical observers as being an almost physically impossible feat (which I won't bother to detail, since it would take time). That particular teacher was raised and trained back in the boondocks of Szechuan Province in China, but he had gone to a western-science-based college in Beijing. When we asked him how on earth he had done such a demonstration, his reply was, "Some people call it qi... but really it is only that the human body can be conditioned to do more than most people realize." These ki skills we're talking about and which so many Asians have traditionally hoarded knowledge of are more than "good physical condition", "good coordination", and so on. They're sort of like magic tricks.... you can't do them until someone shows you how, but once you understand how to do them, of course they conform to all the laws of physics.

FWIW

Mike Sigman


How can I put this to you Mr Sigman........Do you practice ju no kata? Simple answer to a simple question? No?

Best,

Mike
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#32 User is offline   Mike Sigman 

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 11:20 PM

View PostHanon, on Jul 16 2008, 04:52 PM, said:

I would like to continue to debate the thread you started and thats about the concept of nai ki in ju no kata. Again, do you actually know Ju no kata? <_<
Here's my originally posted comment:

This little clue confirms a lot about the unusual movements in many of the kata, BTW. Ki-wise, this is more sophisticated (if I extrapolate it aright along the usual ki-skills training methods) than I would have guessed was in Judo. Apparently knowledge of this type of training is mostly lost, nowadays. Good thing that Trevor Leggett took the time to mention it and to indicate that the how's and why's were seemingly lost as recently as 1964.

Please take a look at my most recent post before this one. How can we "debate" nai ki when you're offering your personal opinion of what ki is against an example that I deliberately used because it is unquestionably recognized as an example of "ki" throughout expert-level martial arts in Asia? Does your opinion trump, and if so why?

If you look, my initial post was about what Trevor Leggett said in his own book. Also please note my comments to Taigyo about learning forms, kata, etc. I can do Ju-no-Kata.... can you do the one-legged demonstration? If you can, can you explain how it works?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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#33 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 11:35 PM

[quote name='Mike Sigman' date='Jul 17 2008, 12:20 AM' post='387627']
Here's my originally posted comment:

This little clue confirms a lot about the unusual movements in many of the kata, BTW. Ki-wise, this is more sophisticated (if I extrapolate it aright along the usual ki-skills training methods) than I would have guessed was in Judo. Apparently knowledge of this type of training is mostly lost, nowadays. Good thing that Trevor Leggett took the time to mention it and to indicate that the how's and why's were seemingly lost as recently as 1964.

Please take a look at my most recent post before this one. How can we "debate" nai ki when you're offering your personal opinion of what ki is against an example that I deliberately used because it is unquestionably recognized as an example of "ki" throughout expert-level martial arts in Asia? Does your opinion trump, and if so why?

If you look, my initial post was about what Trevor Leggett said in his own book. Also please note my comments to Taigyo about learning forms, kata, etc. I can do Ju-no-Kata.... can you do the one-legged demonstration? If you can, can you explain how it works?

Regards,

Mike Sigman


'One legged demonstration' in a ju no kata thread. To answer your question, No I have not even seen such a thing. Clearly I am out of my depth here and will return to the dojo and practice this one legged activity untill I know better. BTW will I need a 'tai chi ruler' to measure my 'micrososmic orbit' next time I practice?
I am sure you are a kind nice man but in terms of judo I think I cant offer you anything. Sorry Mr Sigman your just too smart for me.

My best to you for the future sir,

Mike
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#34 User is offline   Mike Sigman 

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 11:45 PM

View PostHanon, on Jul 16 2008, 05:35 PM, said:

'One legged demonstration' in a ju no kata thread. To answer your question, No I have not even seen such a thing. Clearly I am out of my depth here and will return to the dojo and practice this one legged activity untill I know better. BTW will I need a 'tai chi ruler' to measure my 'micrososmic orbit' next time I practice?
I am sure you are a kind nice man but in terms of judo I think I cant offer you anything. Sorry Mr Sigman your just too smart for me.
Thanks for the kind words, Mike. Just to be sure I understand, then.... you see no relationship between that one-legged demonstration and "nai ki"? There's never a moment in Ju-no-Kata where you're on one leg and still have nai ki?

And could I ask you to respond to my question about whether "nai ki" is perhaps in other Judo katas if it's supposed to be in Ju-no-kata?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

This post has been edited by Mike Sigman: 16 July 2008 - 11:46 PM

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#35 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 11:51 PM

View PostMike Sigman, on Jul 17 2008, 12:45 AM, said:

Thanks for the kind words, Mike. Just to be sure I understand, then.... you see no relationship between that one-legged demonstration and "nai ki"? There's never a moment in Ju-no-Kata where you're on one leg and still have nai ki?

And could I ask you to respond to my question about whether "nai ki" is perhaps in other Judo katas if it's supposed to be in Ju-no-kata?

Regards,

Mike Sigman


Hiya,

Please feel free to ask me as many questions as you may Mr Sigman.

My best to you.

Mike
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#36 User is offline   Mike Sigman 

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 12:34 AM

View PostHanon, on Jul 16 2008, 05:51 PM, said:

Hiya,

Please feel free to ask me as many questions as you may Mr Sigman.

My best to you.

Mike
Probably no point. I asked you 3 times to justify how your personal opinion of what "ki" is matches up against the known examples I gave. Since you haven't responded, I assume the answer is obvious.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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#37 User is offline   Kaji 

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 01:05 AM

I expected an intellectual randori when I started reading this thread, with lots of ippon ideas coming out of it. What I see is a lot of kumi-kata avoidance and stiff-arming... and perhaps a shido or two for negative Judo. Disappointing...
大智發於心,於心無所尋,成就一切義,無古亦無今。
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#38 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 01:39 AM

View PostKaji, on Jul 17 2008, 02:05 AM, said:

I expected an intellectual randori when I started reading this thread, with lots of ippon ideas coming out of it. What I see is a lot of kumi-kata avoidance and stiff-arming... and perhaps a shido or two for negative Judo. Disappointing...


Sorry to dissapoint you my old friend but I did try. :sad( Honest I did. I am just not up to the task I guess?

How are you these days? So pleased to see you adding here and there. :manoyes:

Best to you and yours,

Mike
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#39 User is offline   Taigyo 

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 05:57 AM

I think I see what Mr. Geiss was talking about
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#40 User is offline   wdax 

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 07:29 AM

View PostMike Sigman, on Jul 16 2008, 11:45 PM, said:

And could I ask you to respond to my question about whether "nai ki" is perhaps in other Judo katas if it's supposed to be in Ju-no-kata?

Regards,

Mike Sigman


You find it in every single technique of judo if you master it, and it is all included in the principal of making most effective use af physical and mental power. In a more abstract form you find it also in the itsutsu-no-kata.

If you are interested in it, please use the three fundamantal methods of learning: practise, practise and more practise!

And I want to repeat the quenstion of Hanon: Did you ever learn ju-no-kata or another judo-kata?

It´s very hard to discuss colors with a blind man...
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#41 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 01:02 PM

View Postwdax, on Jul 17 2008, 08:29 AM, said:

You find it in every single technique of judo if you master it, and it is all included in the principal of making most effective use af physical and mental power. In a more abstract form you find it also in the itsutsu-no-kata.

If you are interested in it, please use the three fundamantal methods of learning: practise, practise and more practise!

And I want to repeat the quenstion of Hanon: Did you ever learn ju-no-kata or another judo-kata?

It´s very hard to discuss colors with a blind man...


That hit the nail on the head all right. My sentiments entirely Wdax sensei.

Mike
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#42 User is offline   Mike Sigman 

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 01:35 PM

View PostTaigyo, on Jul 16 2008, 11:57 PM, said:

I think I see what Mr. Geiss was talking about
Excellent. Then you should understand why your comment about taking a workshop was a non-starter.

Best.


Mike Sigman
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#43 User is offline   Hanon 

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 01:56 PM

View PostMike Sigman, on Jul 17 2008, 02:35 PM, said:

Excellent. Then you should understand why your comment about taking a workshop was a non-starter.

Best.
Mike Sigman


Mr Sigman,

Lets look at this situation. This is a judo forum, a kata section and ju no kata thread. Now your opening question I found very interesting. If you can keep with that question, ie nai ki in terms of Ju no kata, I think this forum will enjoy the debate. I cant comment on Aikido and other areas as I dont like to write about other Martial ways. Do try and see my point. Ju no kata and nai ki I can and desire to debate.

I am in no position to make this obesrvation, I think you have, perhaps, started off here on the wrong foot if you will excuse the pun! Are you here to learn and ask questions or teach? In both cases you need to show in your posts clearly your position and keep on topic. No confrontation ment just word of advice.
Perhaps we should start over fresh?

Best to you,

Mike
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#44 User is offline   Mike Sigman 

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 02:10 PM

View Postwdax, on Jul 17 2008, 01:29 AM, said:

You find it in every single technique of judo if you master it, and it is all included in the principal of making most effective use af physical and mental power. In a more abstract form you find it also in the itsutsu-no-kata.

If you are interested in it, please use the three fundamantal methods of learning: practise, practise and more practise!
I suspect there will come a time in five or ten years (or less) when these discussions on "nai ki" will be remembered fondly and the archives re-examined.

One suggestion I'll leave you with is something that I consider important. These skills are a lot more important in the grand scheme of things than most people realize at the moment and I've noticed some jockeying for position (the same problem, as always) in a few other arts as the implications and basic ki-skills have been getting out there. It's one thing to pretend that you know an abstract in which you think your *opinion* of what it is is equally valid with your mates', who don't know any more than you do. That's just life. The real problem comes when you teach an opinion, and a wrong one, as a valid truth to well-meaning and loyal beginners who believe you know what you're talking about. Of course whenever I mention that it's important that the future careers of beginners be considered, usually the "of course I'm an expert" guys blow off the question and get outraged. I'm not trying to cause any outrage, but am speaking about the importance of other peoples' lives. I've seen some reactions about teachers, when people realized the magnitude of what happened, that made me pretty sad about all the "experts" in the martial arts. None of us are experts... there's always more out there to learn and we have to work just as hard as we did when we were young and full of pep or things get away from us, particularly knowledge.

The above quote by wdax about nai ki is completely off-base. I have no idea who "wdax" is, but he's entitled to his beliefs, right or wrong. If he teaches something wrong to students, in some flair to show how knowledgeable and powerful he is within the judo community (or any other martial-arts community), he deserves to be exposed, as do we all if we teach something as "correct" without really being sure of that. "Nai ki" and all basic ki skills are out-of-the-ordinary physical skills. There's a famous saying that goes: "These skill are not intuitive; they must be taught". No one happens on to them in any real degree without being shown how they're done. Even "practice, practice, practice" won't bring on these skills. Wrong practice cannot possibly bring on right skills.

I enjoyed my visit to the Judo Forum again and I actually picked up a couple of very interesting historical pointers, so many thanks. I'll be out of the country a while and probably engaged with other arts for a bit, but I wish everyone good training.

Regards,


Mike Sigman

A bunch of martial artists get together.... a fight breaks out. Quelle Surprise. Chas Clements
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#45 User is offline   Mike Sigman 

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 02:24 PM

View PostHanon, on Jul 17 2008, 07:56 AM, said:

This is a judo forum, a kata section and ju no kata thread. Now your opening question I found very interesting. If you can keep with that question, ie nai ki in terms of Ju no kata,
Mike, I enjoy sparring, but it has to have a point. Usually out of all the back and forth I gather some information along certain lines of research (like Judo history, but many other things in other arts, too) that I enjoy. The question about "nai ki in terms of Ju no kata" is not really important. The important thing is that a credible source has indicated that "nai ki" is in Ju-no-kata because that means quite simply that it's unavoidable.... nai ki is in all of Judo. So a lot of experts who say there is no ki in judo are immediately wrong and a lot of their other assertions now need a re-look.

The thing about "nai ki" is that I could probably write up a page on the general relationship and trainings of the various components of the so-called "ki skills", but I'm not here to try and teach anyone. However, I'll be glad to bet the mortgage on my house against the mortgage on yours that I know exactly what nai ki is and that you don't, based on your own posts. Care to bet? P.M. me if you do and let's take it offline to set up the bet.

In other words, this is a fairly basic discussion and there's really not even a quibble about it. So if you don't understand what nai ki really means, there's no way you and I can discuss it in relation to Ju-no-Kata, logically, is there? If you don't see my point, perhaps it's because I'm not able to make myself very clear. I considered asking your permission and posting your comments about ki on the QiJin list and letting you try to defend them there, but frankly it would be a malicious thing for me to allow or do because you don't understand how your comments would look on a list full of martial-artists from a number of arts and who understand what the ki-skills are. You'd probably just be met with silence and I'd have to field a bunch of p.m.'s about doing something that wastes everyone's time. So let's let it go.

I've already indicated that I have to leave for a while (packing for the flight this morning), so let's just let the idea of a "debate" of any sort about "nai ki" is not going to happen between you and me for a while. When you're really ready for such a debate, p.m. me and let's talk. Now I have to really get packing. ;wry)

All the Best.


Mike Sigman
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