Hanon, on Jul 16 2008, 06:34 AM, said:
Hi Mr Sigman,
Thank you for your reply. You will find that in all groups in society there is a social order. Here on the forum all posters have to earn their repsect by how and what they write. Some posters write using a pseudonym. I support those who do. You will find, however, that we do know each other as at the ranks you are talking about the world of judo is small. Please accept that just because some members do not know who A or B are does not mean that honourable poster is a myth or not known to those who count.
I see you have got your fingers burned in certain posts. I can understnad this as you do seem to write in a confrontational manner? Judo is about attack and defence and when you make verbal judo if you attack you must expect to be countered. I have no right whatsoever to suggest this to you but with respect I think you perhaps need to join here and work amoung us and earn your 'corn' as we have all done over the years. I may assure you the posters you mention are very knowledgable and highly respected members here, no need for me to endorse them they do that in the manner they post and with the knowledge they write with. Pleased we are able to discuss this, clears the air for all concerned. There is social order in knowledge and I respectfully suggest you respect that here? eh.
I don't think there is anyone I know who doesn't realize that there is a 'pecking order' game to be played on most "martial" forums. And anyone who doesn't play is going to be considered to have an "attitude" and others will attempt to force him/her to conform, etc. It's interesting, it's unfortunately common, and frankly my approach to try to engage quickly and directly so I can get information without having to be drawn into "super-tribe" games. If people in Judo want to proudly proclaim that social games are paramount, I consider it their business; I simply try to avoid getting involved. I hope you'll see my side of that. My view of Judo is that it is an inextricable part of a general subset of the larger Asian martial-arts picture. I don't do "my style" stuff because it seems rather fantastic to me.
I had an interesting conversation with Karl Geis many years ago. At the time I was doing Aikido and I stopped by his dojo in Houston so I could see what his Tomiki group was practicing and how they practiced. We started talking (I'd actually met Karl at some Judo tournaments many years before, but I didn't think it was important to mention to him). After a few minutes of friendly conversation he suddenly thought to ask me who I studied with and I told him that I was with an Aikikai group in town He immediately said, "Aw, you guys are all xxxholes" and I just shrugged and smiled. He wasn't talking about anything I said or did, but he was referring to the general tenor of feelings he's captured from having talked to a number of Aikikai people. I knew exactly what he meant. I thought most Aikikai guys xxxholes, too, although I didn't say anything about Geis' remark nor did I say anything about the silly games that too-many Aikido people tend to play. I was simply there to get information and I don't like to get dragged in to personal characterizations when I'm looking for information. It simply wastes time. So is it possible to stick to the subject of the thread and not get drawn off into social and personal comments?
BTW.... asking direct questions about basic topics can *appear* to be confrontational, but often it's just basic questions that someone would expect self-styled experts to answer easily. In debate there is a known tactic of attempting to shift away from a question which is uncomfortable by attacking some other point (sadly, often it is a personal attack). I would hope to avoid that. Trust me, there are martial forums where the moderator simply requests that a poster get off the personal-orientation and back to the topic.
To the debate regarding nai ki. It is a shame Leggett sensei died before he wrote an addition to his much earlier works. Sensei had over the years gained so much more depth of knowledge and understanding of judo in particular the area you now discuss. I enjoyed my conversations with Sensei and found him so knowledgeable it made me feel truly infantile in terms of judo.
Nai ki is part of judo and the ju no kata and other kata give the pupil a chance to train in and understand just how their body and mind need to work in harmony with each other and then in harmony with that of a partner and indeed life.
I am certainly not up to the task of explaing nai ki in any depth being very much a pupil of judo myself and what I write on any subject here should and must be questioned and studied and never taken as correct. I warn you of this now.
Lets look at Ju no kata and its applications. The physical aspect of Ju no kata is incredible, the excercise may be learned and practiced by non judoka as purly an physical and calming activity for all who desire to learn it. The we take the excercise and use it in judo as a kata. Fist we train for many years in the physical aspects and this is demanding in itself. I have no idea what your experience is in this kata as your bio is also rather empty but if I am teaching a sensei to suck eggs please forgive the impertinence on my part.
So as judoka at every level we learn and grow as we practice this kata we will take something more from it. Eventualy I have no idea what will come of my learning and practicve and I am still enjoying the training. To date I may write that the concept of nai ki has been best explained and learned during my time with this kata.
Well, my question was, and still is, about the functional aspects of "nai ki". If you'll remember, some experts have mentioned that there is no discussion of ki in Judo. This seems to indicate that there's more to the subject so I was trying to get a bit more of a definitive answer about what it is, how it's done, and so forth. There's no point in pushing the question too far because it seems pretty clear that there seems to be little information about the topic in the Judo community, even among some of the experts. This actually tells me most of what I want to know, because my focus is in general trying to pin down how this knowledge was lost and about when it happened.
If Trevor Leggett had the general words to explain about the nai ki (and his explanation is actually a very plausible one that I think is probably some truism he heard in his past), then it seems likely that the general loss of nai ki or other ki information died out *after* Kano died but before Leggett wrote that book on Ju-no-Kata. I'm trying to pin that down. So far it appears that on the subject of ki, Leggett had some information, Feldenkrais had some, Harrison had some, but there is none now, in the Judo community. The Kata's pretty obviously had ki/ju as a focal point. But that seems to be as far as current knowledge seems to go, unless I'm mistaken. I was hoping that I was mistaken, frankly.