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kime shiki Difference to Kime-no-kata Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   finarashi 

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 07:19 AM

While reading my Judo books I came across kime shiki in "Nage no kata : kime shiki" by Hamot, Claude and Pelletier, Guy (1921 - ), Paris, France, sedirep, 1970, 79p.

After introducing nage-no-kata the authors go through kime shiki they explain that kime shiki is similar to kime-no-kata but meant for women. They state that the kata was created by Kano in 1935. They state that the kime shiki was usually started by doing seyryoku zenyo kokumin taiiki. This was then followed by the proper kime shiki. They point out that the realisticality need not be grat and that precision is more important than speed.

According to them
Idori (seated techniques) consists of ryote dori, furi hanashi, gyakute dori, tsukkkake and kirikake. 5 techniques when kime-no-kata has 8
Tachi ai (standing techniques) consists of tsuki age, yoko uchi, ushiro dori, naname tsuki and kiri oroshi. Again 5 techniques when kime-no-kata has 12

How widespread is this 'shortened' version of kime-no-kata.
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#2 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 08:57 AM

View Postfinarashi, on Jul 15 2008, 04:19 PM, said:

While reading my Judo books I came across kime shiki in "Nage no kata : kime shiki" by Hamot, Claude and Pelletier, Guy (1921 - ), Paris, France, sedirep, 1970, 79p.

After introducing nage-no-kata the authors go through kime shiki they explain that kime shiki is similar to kime-no-kata but meant for women. They state that the kata was created by Kano in 1935. They state that the kime shiki was usually started by doing seyryoku zenyo kokumin taiiki. This was then followed by the proper kime shiki. They point out that the realisticality need not be grat and that precision is more important than speed.

According to them
Idori (seated techniques) consists of ryote dori, furi hanashi, gyakute dori, tsukkkake and kirikake. 5 techniques when kime-no-kata has 8
Tachi ai (standing techniques) consists of tsuki age, yoko uchi, ushiro dori, naname tsuki and kiri oroshi. Again 5 techniques when kime-no-kata has 12

How widespread is this 'shortened' version of kime-no-kata.


I have previously written a post on kime-shiki.

Kime-shiki today is included with ju-shiki as part of the Sei-ryoku zenyo kokumin taiiku. Like with goshinho, practice unfortunately is rare, and almost exclusively limited to females today, although it did not use to be that way.

The reason the kata is included in the book you are referring to is because Miwako. She is married to a Frenchman by the name of Jean-Claude Le Bihan, hence why she uses the name "Miwako Le Bihan". She is one of only three women living outside of Japan, who holds a Kodokan 7th dan rank (or higher); the other two are Fukuda Keiko (9th dan) and Takeuchi Kuneko (7th dan) who both live in the US. Miwako was trained in the Joshi-bu (Women's section) of the Kodokan and thus properly learnt the kata and continues to teach it where she lives in Bretagne (Shudokan, Brest). I am assuming that Pat Harrington in Australia may be teaching it too.

I do not believe that Kime-shiki was created in 1935. Although Kime-no-kata was officially also codified at the 1906 Butokukai meeting, the publication that emerged from that meeting only contained nage-no-kata and katame-no-kata. There are no publications containing kime-no-kata until 1931, I believe, by Isogai and Kurihara as part of the Butokukai's judo program. Before that, kime-no-kata was almost nonexistent. However, I have a recording of kime-shiki that is older than 1935, and the fact that like the other very old kata (e.g. go-no-kata) it also only contains 10 techniques, suggests that the kata is in fact old, and predates 1906. There also exists a recording by Isogai and Samura of this kata. As you know, kime-no-kata used to be called shinken-shobu-no-kata and was the successor of shobu-no-kata which became abolished. It is, however, not clear which techniques were included in those old kata. My research shows that kime-shiki is closer to those old kata, and maybe identical. Most certainly in the old days it was performed by men. I believe that it is included in the old kata books by Nagaoka and Yamashita, and it is even included in Kano-shihan's own judo book. Kano orginally does not call Kime-shiki a kata (hence why it does not have the term 'kata' in it), but refers to it as "Kime-shiki-renshu". This suggests that rather than a codified series, it was simply a mnemonic of self-defense techniques to be taught as part of the judo syllabus. This is entirely in line with what I have said before, that kata were never intended to be performed only as ceremonial exercises. As with go-no-kata, ju-no-kata, ju-shiki, there are not completed throws in kime-shiki hence why it can be easily performed without tatami and in plain clothes.

I have taught it in Europe, but there is little demand for it. Today, I almost only practice it at the Kodokan with female sensei, because males do not know it anymore. It was taught for the last time as a part of an international course during the 2006 International Summer Kata Course by Umezu-sensei who is probably the leading expert in it. Americans may have a chance to see it during the Joshi camp as Eiko Shepherd knows it too, but I do not know if she'll teach it.

The Kodokan's Joshi-bu was not created until November of 1926, and these unofficial designations of certain exercises as "for women" obviously only happened afterwards. It seems that introduction of kime-no-kata only in the 1930's steadily led to a decline of kime-shiki being performed by males.

Kime-shiki has clear roots in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu, more so than Kime-no-kata. However, it is an exercise that is likely to attract sneering comments from other martial artist in terms of its effectiveness. One has to bear in mind that judo was never created as a battle field sport, or as a military discipline to deal with terrorists or other martial arts experts. Kime-shiki provides sufficient ability for a person to provide some self-defense against a non-trained person, to possibly send him to change his mind, or similar. Meanwhile it also provides an exercise of physical education. Those seeking techniques to neutralize top-MMA fighters should be looking elsewhere.

Finally, in addition to the books you mention, the leading and available modern texts of kime-shiki are Fukuda Keiko's 1973 "Born for the mat", and Ito Kazuo's "This is judo for women".
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#3 User is offline   wdax 

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 09:25 AM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Jul 15 2008, 08:57 AM, said:

...
Finally, in addition to the books you mention, the leading and available modern texts of kime-shiki are Fukuda Keiko's 1973 "Born for the mat", and Ito Kazuo's "This is judo for women".


Another source is "Kata of Kodokan Judo revised" by Kotani, Osawa and Hirose, 1968, Koyano Bussan Kaisha LTD. Kobe, Japan.
But there is no backgraound information included, only descriptions of the thechniques.
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#4 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 09:43 AM

View Postwdax, on Jul 15 2008, 06:25 PM, said:

Another source is "Kata of Kodokan Judo revised" by Kotani, Osawa and Hirose, 1968, Koyano Bussan Kaisha LTD. Kobe, Japan.
But there is no backgraound information included, only descriptions of the thechniques.


Thanks, I had forgotten to mention that. Yes, do consult this book too. I believe the late Nihoshi-sensei, Joshi-hachidan, is performing the kata.
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
"I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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#5 User is offline   wdax 

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 11:10 AM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Jul 15 2008, 09:43 AM, said:

Thanks, I had forgotten to mention that. Yes, do consult this book too. I believe the late Nihoshi-sensei, Joshi-hachidan, is performing the kata.


Gratitude is given in the preface of the book to:
Haruko Niboshi (5th dan)
Mistuko Ishii (2nd dan)

But this was in the year of 1968!!! She also demonstrates joshi judo goshinho in the book.

"b" and "h".... well I think only a problem of the correct romanji....
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#6 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 11:28 AM

View Postwdax, on Jul 15 2008, 08:10 PM, said:

Gratitude is given in the preface of the book to:
Haruko Niboshi (5th dan)
Mistuko Ishii (2nd dan)

But this was in the year of 1968!!! She also demonstrates joshi judo goshinho in the book.

"b" and "h".... well I think only a problem of the correct romanji....


'Nihoshi' or 'Niboshi' is indentical, just like 'Nihon' or 'Nippon' are the same. The only 100% correct way to write it is the kanji. We use romaji to approximate the kanji. In doing so, both ways of writing the name approximate the kanji.

I mentioned the final rank of Nihoshi-sensei at the time of her death. Together with Noritomo she was the first joshi hachidan. Since then only two more Kodokan joshi hachidan have existed, both of which are still alive (Fukuda sensei, later promoted to first and only joshi kudan, and Umezu-sensei).
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
"I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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#7 User is offline   wdax 

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 11:52 AM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Jul 15 2008, 11:28 AM, said:

'Nihoshi' or 'Niboshi' is indentical, just like 'Nihon' or 'Nippon' are the same. The only 100% correct way to write it is the kanji. We use romaji to approximate the kanji. In doing so, both ways of writing the name approximate the kanji.

I mentioned the final rank of Nihoshi-sensei at the time of her death. Together with Noritomo she was the first joshi hachidan. Since then only two more Kodokan joshi hachidan have existed, both of which are still alive (Fukuda sensei, later promoted to first and only joshi kudan, and Umezu-sensei).


I thought so..... I added the rank and the year so it can be verified.
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#8 User is offline   Judolady 

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 12:13 PM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Jul 15 2008, 04:57 AM, said:

Americans may have a chance to see it during the Joshi camp as Eiko Shepherd knows it too, but I do not know if she'll teach it.

Finally, in addition to the books you mention, the leading and available modern texts of kime-shiki are Fukuda Keiko's 1973 "Born for the mat", and Ito Kazuo's "This is judo for women".


Kimi-shiki was covered in one session at the Joshi camp in 2007; that's the first time I've seen it. I got the impression that Miss Fukuda's students were familiar with that kata, but that was new for at least most of the other participants.

This post has been edited by Judolady: 15 July 2008 - 12:14 PM

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#9 User is offline   tis 

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 09:20 PM

I presume that the following link has already been posted:
http://www.judo-educ...kime_shiki.html
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#10 User is online   Jonesy 

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 09:51 PM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Jul 15 2008, 09:57 AM, said:

Finally, in addition to the books you mention, the leading and available modern texts of kime-shiki are Fukuda Keiko's 1973 "Born for the mat", ......


This rare book is available on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...p3286.m63.l1177

It is very much worth buying. I have a copy and the photographs therein are glossy and excellen. The title is misleading - it is not a book for femal judoka - it is a book for any serious judoka.
Dr Llyr C Jones
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#11 User is offline   bythesea 

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 02:08 AM

Hi all, ran across this video labeled kime-shiki. I know nothing about this, and am not sure if this has been posted but if not, thought I'd pass it along.


Kuchiwaza -- my tokuiwaza.
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#12 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 05:09 AM

View Postbythesea, on 17 May 2010 - 12:08 PM, said:

Hi all, ran across this video labeled kime-shiki. I know nothing about this, and am not sure if this has been posted but if not, thought I'd pass it along.




Too bad about the caption since that is obviously not Kaichirô Samura, but Hajime Isogai !
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
"I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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#13 User is offline   NBK 

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 12:18 PM

Any idea about the scroll in the background or the location? :mellow:


應用心身の力者
柔道

Thanks....

This post has been edited by NBK: 17 May 2010 - 12:31 PM



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黄石公三略 上略
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#14 User is offline   Taigyo 

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 06:21 PM

I would like to learn this kata.
The unfortunate thing (at least in the U.S.) about when kata are deemed 'women's kata' is that they seem to lose all their spirit, at least in the U.S.. I think a lot of women have looked at the example of Fukuda sensei who could (by the reports I have heard and videos I have seen) could knock the bejessus out out you and look very elegant and graceful while doing it. They seem to have focused on the graceful and lost the content of the kata. They seek to emulate the form but lose the function.

This post has been edited by Taigyo: 17 May 2010 - 06:22 PM

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#15 User is offline   Saitama Steve 

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 09:33 AM

I wrote this elsewhere a few months back in a different thread, but it's more germaine here.

The first three techniques are from Tenjin Shinyō-ryū; nos. 1 & 2 are from the tehodoki set and no.3 is a mixture of a tehodoki technique and a technique from the Chūdan Idori. (either that or it was a stylized version of the technique from that particular line of Tenjin Shinyō-ryū.)

No.4 - Unknown.

No.5 - I have seen something almost identical to this in Shibukawa-ryū jūjutsu from the Kansai area. Tanken-dori (短剣取)

Nos. 6,7 & 8 could be from Sōsuishi-ryū. These ukete methods are in the ryu and are found in several kata, however the atemi for 6 & 7 is seiken, which is something that isn't really used in the ryū. Tsuki-age (fist with the palm up) is more commonly used, not seiken-tsuki.

(N.B. There is a type of waki-gatame in Sōsuishi-ryū, but it's nothing like the Tenjin Shinyō-ryū flavoured waki-gatame in the Kime no Kata or in technique no.4 of the Kime Shiki.)
Regards,

Steve Delaney

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