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Hara- vs. waki-gatame tapping out Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 07:31 AM

During a recent meeting of the IJF Kata Commission it was agree that the judgment standards for kime-no-kata assume that when tori's defense ends in hara-gatame, that the uke will tap off on the mat, and for those defenses of tori ending in waki-gatame, that uke will tap off on the tori.

I was curious how many of you have consistently been doing this, or whether you apply a different rationale or no rationale at all.
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#2 User is offline   Steve Leadbeater 

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 09:17 AM

When learning Kime-no-Kata to assist my old Sensei with his latest grading, I was taught ......Hara... taps the mat...Waki... taps Tori.

I see no reason to change or any need to discuss, UNLESS I am missing something.

AM I ??
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#3 User is offline   Cichorei Kano 

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 10:18 AM

View PostSteve Leadbeater, on Jul 9 2008, 06:17 PM, said:

When learning Kime-no-Kata to assist my old Sensei with his latest grading, I was taught ......Hara... taps the mat...Waki... taps Tori.

I see no reason to change or any need to discuss, UNLESS I am missing something.

AM I ??


No, Steve, you are not missing anything. Let's see if anyone else is missing anything. In other words, let's see if everyone else learnt it like you.
"The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
"Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
"Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
"I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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#4 User is offline   finarashi 

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 12:06 PM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Jul 9 2008, 10:31 AM, said:

During a recent meeting of the IJF Kata Commission it was agree that the judgment standards for kime-no-kata assume that when tori's defense ends in hara-gatame, that the uke will tap off on the mat, and for those defenses of tori ending in waki-gatame, that uke will tap off on the tori.

I was curious how many of you have consistently been doing this, or whether you apply a different rationale or no rationale at all.

I have just started to train this during this spring so ... but does this apply also while standing?
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#5 User is offline   kodokanjudo 

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 01:31 PM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Jul 9 2008, 07:31 AM, said:

During a recent meeting of the IJF Kata Commission it was agree that the judgment standards for kime-no-kata assume that when tori's defense ends in hara-gatame, that the uke will tap off on the mat, and for those defenses of tori ending in waki-gatame, that uke will tap off on the tori.

I was curious how many of you have consistently been doing this, or whether you apply a different rationale or no rationale at all.

That's how I learned it.
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#6 User is offline   tommysella 

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 01:51 PM

View PostCichorei Kano, on Jul 9 2008, 07:31 AM, said:

During a recent meeting of the IJF Kata Commission it was agree that the judgment standards for kime-no-kata assume that when tori's defense ends in hara-gatame, that the uke will tap off on the mat, and for those defenses of tori ending in waki-gatame, that uke will tap off on the tori.

I was curious how many of you have consistently been doing this, or whether you apply a different rationale or no rationale at all.


Same way I been tought... The reason (at least in idori), is that uke is in an lower position for hara and could fall down if taping on tori. Don't really see this reason for the standing, but I guess it's for consistent...

Actually I'm cought in a photo from the latest EJU kata judging seminar in BorĂ¥s where I tap on uke for waki-gatame in goshin-jutsu, instead of myself. Sometimes one confuse when switching from kata to kata :-)

Regards,
Tommy
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#7 User is offline   Taigyo 

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 03:51 PM

I learned the same way. Hara gatame tap the mat, Waki gatame tap uke. So why does it really matter other than the most efficient way to tap so uke doesn't rip your arm off. I guess one answer would be so you don't lose points in competition, but does it really go beyond that?

This post has been edited by Taigyo: 16 October 2008 - 03:51 PM

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#8 User is offline   BomberH 

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 04:25 PM

When the attacks are made with vigour and the locks are applied swiftly and decisively, the best place to tap would be that which is easiest to reach. This is maximum efficiency in saving your elbow.

I was only aware that there was a convention for submitting in Kime no Kata after ukeing for someone at the Kodokan (had never met or trained with them before that day). They seemed to get quite annoyed that my tapping was rather haphazard. I guess I should make an effort to formalise that part of my Kata performance.
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